Poll: Faster crafting speed?

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Should the crafting speed increased?

Yes, cause it takes too long yet.
7
6%
Yes, cause this will add more fun to the game.
17
15%
No, cause it is part of the game to automate everything.
60
53%
No, let's try other ideas first (*).
21
19%
No opinion to this. Everything is fine.
6
5%
Crafting speed? What is that?
2
2%
 
Total votes: 113

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Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by ssilk »

There is currently a bigger discussion in the suggestions-board around this question:
Do we need a research about faster crafting?

(see here: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=16085 Player crafting speed research )

There are in general two opinions:
Pro: It adds more comfort and fun to the game and makes the overall pace faster.
Contra: Factorio is game about automation. If you add crafting speed it's going to be like many other games.

(*) There are other ideas, which are about improving the crafting queue. For example show how long this item will need and how long the whole queue will take to finish. Easier interruption of the queue, queue-priorities and some more ideas.
Another possibility would be also to make the setup for the combination of inserter-assembler-outserter easier/faster to built.
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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Kane »

Nope. The whole point is to automate crafting. Your not suppose to do it in your pocket and in fact a few things should be considered removed rather then added late game or increase the crafting time on certain things. Like Crafting a satellite in your pocket is a joke.

This would be a perfect mod idea but not a base game idea. Why we have modding support. If it can't be done via modding be a perfect suggestion to have added into modding.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by ssilk »

It's already a mod. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 93&t=15555
The question is about putting it into vanilla.
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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Kane »

ssilk wrote:It's already a mod. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 93&t=15555
The question is about putting it into vanilla.
Next Poll Micro transactions and New alien artifacts Currency System :P Unlock faster crafting for a low payment of 10,000,000 Artifacts :P

I guess you were doing what people wanted but at times you have to remember every suggestion or idea even if a majority of people cried would cripple and ruin this game if they were added. People tend to cry more then the people who are already happy. It's just a way of life. I really think a poll like this is not needed because it only tried to undermines the decisions of the developers. This is too much of a hot subject to even exist :P

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by lancar »

No, it doesn't need to be faster. In fact, several items should probably take longer than they currently do. Only the most basest of intermediates should take 0,5 secs to make.

I'd much rather have research to get a bigger inventory, or armor modules that increase inventory size. With the advent of the new tier of personal logistics research, it would encourage me to let the bots keep me loaded with more types of intermediates at any one time, thus shortening the construction times "in the hand" that way.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Ackos »

Vanilla game is already too easy.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by roman566 »

Kane wrote:Nope. The whole point is to automate crafting. Your not suppose to do it in your pocket and in fact a few things should be considered removed rather then added late game or increase the crafting time on certain things. Like Crafting a satellite in your pocket is a joke.

This would be a perfect mod idea but not a base game idea. Why we have modding support. If it can't be done via modding be a perfect suggestion to have added into modding.
The game is about having fun. If you want to automate crafting everything from wooden boxes to PAMKII then no one will stop you from doing so. Adding the technology will be useful for those who are not so... obsessive about automating stuff.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Klonan »

I think this is a flawed poll, and really doesn't help solve any of the issues with this discussion.

Some people say ' I want to craft faster'

And then other come to say 'Thats against the spirit of the game'

But i didnt read anywhere that you HAVE to play the game with that mindset.

For part of the reason my mod has over 200 downloads, some people like faster crafting speed research. Are you saying they are wrong in their belief? That they are somehow sullying the idea of the game by using such a bad and disgraceful mod, and to play the game in a style that suits them?

No of course not, the game is about creativity, outward thinking and having fun.

Some people have fun automating everything, in that case they don't need research.

But other people have fun doing other things, making outposts and crafting things by hand. For them its no ruining gameplay to let them craft things faster, its reducing the tedium of one aspect, to increase enjoyment of another.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by sillyfly »

One idea which I had for maybe overcoming (which may also help with the "inventory too small" 'problem') is to have what I call Crafting Packs: Craftable items which take significant time and resources to produce, but can be used to craft things in-hand quickly. The idea is it will always be more efficient (time and resource wise) to craft things the "regular" way, but for one-off jobs it will be convenient to have some Crafting Packs on hand at all times. This of course can be a mod.

Here is an example of how I thought it could work -
Crafting Pack 1 costs 5 iron, 5 gears and 5 electronic circuits, and takes 5 seconds to craft.
Assembling machine 1 takes 2 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.
Mining Drill takes 2 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.
Inserter takes 1 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.

You use more resources, and more time overall to craft the CPs, but you can have a few Crafting Packs on hand at all times instead of carrying a lot of iron gears and copper, and not have to craft all the intermediates. The time is saved by you, because it is invested by machines earlier in the creation of CPs. The idea is to have machines producing the CPs, but when you craft in hand you craft only from CPs.

For higher tiers of items there will be higher tiers of Crafting Packs, so for example CP2 can take 4 steel, 2 red circuits and 2 batteries, and take 10 seconds to craft, and say a laser turret will take 6 CP2 and 6 CP1. Of course numbers are all just examples.


If indeed implemented (probably better as a mod) it should be done carefully so as to avoid over-complication. Maybe make most recipes not hand-craftable (especially CPs should not be allowed to be crafted by hand!), so a player doesn't get confused as to which recipe they should use.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Adil »

Brilliant!
The factory is still working with intricate recipes, players just pack up with those and venture forth.
This can be done in a separate crafting category, which is forbidden for assemblers and put on a separate tab for player.

Btw, did you know the player already crafts faster than all but mk3 assemblers?
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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by ssilk »

@Klonan: Again: The question is about putting it into vanilla.

I never would say, someone has to play it so or so, but the question here is, how should the VANILLA behave? There can be only one vanilla game and the possibilities there are not endless. Should it be more user-friendly for example? Should it be harder? Such questions... That depends very strong of how you play it and the average user in the suggestion board is different to the average users here.

And - well - this is smelling. But the reason why I made the poll was, that I thought I need a way to bring this question more up, because in the end it's a very basic question about principle game design, which could also be very helpful for the devs.



@sillyfly:
I like the direction in which this goes (I'm sure, similar stuff has already be suggested - as always :) ). Such ideas was, what I hoped come out from making a poll out of it. :)
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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Gus_Smedstad »

Sure, there have been people who have downloaded all sorts of mods which make the game easier. Because some people like easy.

Similarly, there have lots of people who have downloaded mods which make the game harder. Some of those mods increase crafting time, such as the Marathon mod. Because those people (who include myself) like more of a challenge.

The obvious answer is make it a difficultly level adjustment. For those people who don't really like the core concept of automation, they can crank the crafting speed up if they like.

As far as default behavior, it shouldn't be any faster than it is. When I was first learning to play, I tended to play it more like a crafting game, like Minecraft. It was realizing that I was taking too long to craft ammunition that made me realize I really ought to be creating factories to do the crafting.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Kane »

Adil wrote:Brilliant!
The factory is still working with intricate recipes, players just pack up with those and venture forth.
This can be done in a separate crafting category, which is forbidden for assemblers and put on a separate tab for player.

Btw, did you know the player already crafts faster than all but mk3 assemblers?
And the MK3 only .25 faster if I recall. I wonder if a lot these people play pure vanilla. Can't understand why people can't use mods. If the mod does really really good it shows the devs that there is a massive demand for it... Not via polls.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by lancar »

sillyfly wrote:One idea which I had for maybe overcoming (which may also help with the "inventory too small" 'problem') is to have what I call Crafting Packs: Craftable items which take significant time and resources to produce, but can be used to craft things in-hand quickly. The idea is it will always be more efficient (time and resource wise) to craft things the "regular" way, but for one-off jobs it will be convenient to have some Crafting Packs on hand at all times. This of course can be a mod.

Here is an example of how I thought it could work -
Crafting Pack 1 costs 5 iron, 5 gears and 5 electronic circuits, and takes 5 seconds to craft.
Assembling machine 1 takes 2 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.
Mining Drill takes 2 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.
Inserter takes 1 CP1 and 0.5 seconds to craft.

You use more resources, and more time overall to craft the CPs, but you can have a few Crafting Packs on hand at all times instead of carrying a lot of iron gears and copper, and not have to craft all the intermediates. The time is saved by you, because it is invested by machines earlier in the creation of CPs. The idea is to have machines producing the CPs, but when you craft in hand you craft only from CPs.

For higher tiers of items there will be higher tiers of Crafting Packs, so for example CP2 can take 4 steel, 2 red circuits and 2 batteries, and take 10 seconds to craft, and say a laser turret will take 6 CP2 and 6 CP1. Of course numbers are all just examples.


If indeed implemented (probably better as a mod) it should be done carefully so as to avoid over-complication. Maybe make most recipes not hand-craftable (especially CPs should not be allowed to be crafted by hand!), so a player doesn't get confused as to which recipe they should use.
But if you only had a few more inventory slots, carrying a stack each of the most used intermediaries wouldn't be an issue. Would it? And it'd be a lot more less time consuming to implement, promote more customization and flexibility, and is more in-line with already existing game systems.
And what would happen if a crafted item needs some from crafting pack 1 and some from crafting pack 2, and maybe even some from crafting pack 3? Would you use all three of them and effectively discard the wasted unused materials? The only thing my way wouldn't help with would be to reduce the crafting time of the end product... which, in that case, would just be easier to use the already existing crafting speed mod (which was probably also easier to write) for those few instances when it would even be warranted.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by sillyfly »

lancar wrote:
sillyfly wrote:...
But if you only had a few more inventory slots, carrying a stack each of the most used intermediaries wouldn't be an issue. Would it? And it'd be a lot more less time consuming to implement, promote more customization and flexibility, and is more in-line with already existing game systems.
And what would happen if a crafted item needs some from crafting pack 1 and some from crafting pack 2, and maybe even some from crafting pack 3? Would you use all three of them and effectively discard the wasted unused materials? The only thing my way wouldn't help with would be to reduce the crafting time of the end product... which, in that case, would just be easier to use the already existing crafting speed mod (which was probably also easier to write) for those few instances when it would even be warranted.
Yes, it is by-design of my idea that you always use more resources when crafting from crafting-packs - that's the price you have to pay for this convenience, in my mind.
The easiest thing by far is to make all items free and take 0 time to craft ;) I think what I and most of the people opposing the straight-out increase in crafting speed (and inventory space, if we are talking about it as well) want is to preserve the challenge and interest in the game.
Of course, everyone can play the game however they want :)
My crux with the straight-out faster crafting (whether through research or as a flat increase since the start of the game) is that it feels like it takes some of the challenge, some of the fun of the game.

This is why I think the Crafting Packs (in some form similar to how I described them above) could be a good middle-ground - it allows for flexibility and convenience, but at a price, and without ever circumventing automation, just delegating it. I think of it a bit like the difference between building your own bed or buying one from IKEA - of course buying the bed from IKEA is cheaper and faster for you, but the IKEA factory had to put in a lot of effort to make the parts so you can build it in your house quickly. But having a IKEA shop nearby is not the same as being able to make a bed from planks in 15 minutes - even a master carpenter would probably take a few hours doing this :D

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by lancar »

Kane wrote:
Adil wrote:Brilliant!
The factory is still working with intricate recipes, players just pack up with those and venture forth.
This can be done in a separate crafting category, which is forbidden for assemblers and put on a separate tab for player.

Btw, did you know the player already crafts faster than all but mk3 assemblers?
And the MK3 only .25 faster if I recall. I wonder if a lot these people play pure vanilla. Can't understand why people can't use mods. If the mod does really really good it shows the devs that there is a massive demand for it... Not via polls.
Sure it's only .25 faster, but it also has 4 mod slots for further speed boosting.

As for not using mods. I'll counter with: Can't understand why people feel like they have to use mods to prove a point. If the game needs some improvement, why not just explain it to the devs in a well thought-out fashion? If an idea is good, they'll listen. Even to polls.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Kane »

lancar wrote:
Kane wrote:
Adil wrote:Brilliant!
The factory is still working with intricate recipes, players just pack up with those and venture forth.
This can be done in a separate crafting category, which is forbidden for assemblers and put on a separate tab for player.

Btw, did you know the player already crafts faster than all but mk3 assemblers?
And the MK3 only .25 faster if I recall. I wonder if a lot these people play pure vanilla. Can't understand why people can't use mods. If the mod does really really good it shows the devs that there is a massive demand for it... Not via polls.
Sure it's only .25 faster, but it also has 4 mod slots for further speed boosting.

As for not using mods. I'll counter with: Can't understand why people feel like they have to use mods to prove a point. If the game needs some improvement, why not just explain it to the devs in a well thought-out fashion? If an idea is good, they'll listen. Even to polls.
Does not need improvements. And if you want improvements it should be based on modular armor. How you crafting things so far via your hands anyways?

They added modding support for a reason. If people are having an issue or dislike something a quick install of a mod works well. If this is something more and more people do then they should look into adding such a feature. But saying that why should we install a mod crap does not go well here.. I assume you live in a country where the people in power are doing shit all and you hate them just like the rest of them. How is your polls doing there? Instead mod them bastards and make your point!

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by lancar »

Kane wrote:
lancar wrote:
Kane wrote:
Adil wrote:Brilliant!
The factory is still working with intricate recipes, players just pack up with those and venture forth.
This can be done in a separate crafting category, which is forbidden for assemblers and put on a separate tab for player.

Btw, did you know the player already crafts faster than all but mk3 assemblers?
And the MK3 only .25 faster if I recall. I wonder if a lot these people play pure vanilla. Can't understand why people can't use mods. If the mod does really really good it shows the devs that there is a massive demand for it... Not via polls.
Sure it's only .25 faster, but it also has 4 mod slots for further speed boosting.

As for not using mods. I'll counter with: Can't understand why people feel like they have to use mods to prove a point. If the game needs some improvement, why not just explain it to the devs in a well thought-out fashion? If an idea is good, they'll listen. Even to polls.
Does not need improvements. And if you want improvements it should be based on modular armor. How you crafting things so far via your hands anyways?

They added modding support for a reason. If people are having an issue or dislike something a quick install of a mod works well. If this is something more and more people do then they should look into adding such a feature. But saying that why should we install a mod crap does not go well here.. I assume you live in a country where the people in power are doing shit all and you hate them just like the rest of them. How is your polls doing there? Instead mod them bastards and make your point!
Wait, what? Where did your statement of "can't understand people who can't use mods" turn into "I made up my mind of where you live and you should fight against the government"?

Seriously, what? :D
Last edited by lancar on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by sillyfly »

Kane wrote: Does not need improvements. And if you want improvements it should be based on modular armor. How you crafting things so far via your hands anyways?

They added modding support for a reason. If people are having an issue or dislike something a quick install of a mod works well. If this is something more and more people do then they should look into adding such a feature. But saying that why should we install a mod crap does not go well here.. I assume you live in a country where the people in power are doing shit all and you hate them just like the rest of them. How is your polls doing there? Instead mod them bastards and make your point!
Er... What? :?

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Re: Poll: Faster crafting speed?

Post by Kane »

sillyfly wrote:
Kane wrote: Does not need improvements. And if you want improvements it should be based on modular armor. How you crafting things so far via your hands anyways?

They added modding support for a reason. If people are having an issue or dislike something a quick install of a mod works well. If this is something more and more people do then they should look into adding such a feature. But saying that why should we install a mod crap does not go well here.. I assume you live in a country where the people in power are doing shit all and you hate them just like the rest of them. How is your polls doing there? Instead mod them bastards and make your point!
Er... What? :?
Just download the damn mod :P

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