why prod modules are important

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Khagan
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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Khagan »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:49 pm
With modules, you can also boot strap them, which one frequently does, even in speed runs. Ie, you place PM1, and as production / tech ramps up, you replace them with PM2 (reusing the PM1s of course), and then finally PM3s. Upgrade BPs FTW.
Yes, and even if you don't actually do it this way, the cost-benefit calculations should usually assume that you were. That is, instead of calculating the extra production and cost of PM3 compared to nothing, compare them to PM2; similarly, for PM2, assume you already have PM1.
mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 pm
Maybe there is something to be said for efficiency modules in miners. 2 efficiency module 2 in each miner and you cut the energy and pollution down to 20%.
3 efficiency 1 does the same job for a fraction of the cost. EM1 are not silly if you really want to keep pollution down, and since mining patches are often on the edges of defended territory they are a particularly desirable place to do so. But even if you also want efficiency for the power savings (presumably because you are not using nuclear power) higher level EMs are just not worth the cost.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by aka13 »

mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:19 pm

As for building new mines you should start up the map editor, put down a huge patch of ore and design a big mining outpost with rail station and defenses and all the bells an whistles included. Then take a blueprint of that. Go back to the game and you can establish a new mine with one click + connecting the railroad, build the train station and place the first roboport. Easily done with a personal roboport, a roboport in a spidertron or a roboport in a train if you have a mod for that active. Automation is the name of the game.

Still annoying work but placing the actual miners is the least of the problem. If you build every mining outpost to match the ore patch then you are wasting a lot of time doing boring stuff.
Certainly, that speeds things up. I have went further, and only build mining stations "inline" into my rail segments, so that I do not need to clear any land or trees, or lay landfill for that.
Nevertheless, it's still either "send a spidertron, wait 5 years, send a train, wait for spidertron to arrive, work with cumbersome and small radar window, move spidertron around, also cumbersome, all conveyor between mine-smelter-station also more cumbersome, because you only can work with either blueprints, or copy paste, none of the nice things you get when laying them yourself. Also, don't forget - you have to click the whole route to base for the spidertron with waypoints by hand.


99% of the time setting up the outpost yourself + the supply train will be faster and more "fun" if you will. Less cumbersome limitations, faster interaction, etc.

So yeah, usually I have more prod3 than I can use, and not enough outposts I should be using. I know, that there are a lot of great mods to mitigate that, AAI vehicles, as stated before, for example, but I am nurturing this factory to be the perfect start for the expansion.
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

Nidan wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:39 am
mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:48 pm
Nidan wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:27 pm
Starting again with one miner and a single prod 3 module, that miner has an effective speed of (1 + 10%) * (1 - 15%) = 0,935. To compensate we need to reach an effective speed of 1,1 (i.e. base mining speed plus prod bonus), thus add 0,165 effective speed, which is 0,165 / 0,935 ~ 0,1764 extra miners.
This seems a bit backwards and unrealistic. You have the resources for build a PM3 module but you didn't build enough miners to cover all of the ore patch yet? But your math seems reasonable.
Of course this is more theoretical than practical.
Sometimes the mathematicial approach seems backwards at first glance, but if we want to compare various setups, they must be consistent in some metric, for which I chose rate of output. Otherwise we're comparing apples and oranges. And even if your ore fields are covered completely, you may need an estimate on how many new ore fields you need.

I was about to argue about potential energy savings using this setup, but 90kW * (1 + 3 * 80%) * (1 + 81,82%) ~ 556kW is more than the energy consumption of the beaconed setup from my earlier post which uses 90kW * (1 + 3 * 80% + 3 * 60% / 2) + 2 * 480kW / 8 = 507kW per miner and there's still room to add one efficiency module of you are so inclined.

In conclusion, the more miners variant uses roughly 10% more energy than the beaconed variant. Maybe not so theoretical after all, if there are things you'd trade this energy inefficiency for...
Wow, I didn't realize that beacon setups aren't just cheaper for the same output/s but also save energy when compared against the same use of productivity modules.

As for the efficiency module: If you use nuclear power is trivial to make. If you use solar then power costs time to place the panels. So it's a question whether you rather want to place boring solar panels or boring mining outposts. :) Personally I think I have never used an efficiency module. But seeing the pollution numbers of mining drills in detail I might try it out for comparison in some mining outposts and compare the amount of bitter attacks with and without. Next time I play with aliens ...

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mmmPI »

That's not what the math mean, There was a comparaison made between 2 different specific setup where one repay itself faster , it's completly different, on a limited amount of ore on the map you will have to change your mining drill more often and potentially run out of ore before you can repay them. Which is already a requirement when you have a beacon setup. And is made even worse when you have a design with beacon AND overlapping mining drill.

How often does it occur that all the mining drill end up depleted at the same time ? never you always have some working and some not working due to depletion or output ful, you also have to acount for beacon not always able to provide their full bonus. You can easily account for 5 to 10% of losses there which is already the difference in energy between 2 setups using the same SPEED BONUS from beacon.

If you account for the design made by Nidan, which is either 2prod3 and 1 speed2 in a mining drill , or 2 beacon with 3 speed 2 and 3 pm3 in the mining drill, then you have a terribly inefficient setup (sorry Nidan) but if you use 2 beacon you place in them 4 modules not just 3, as it's way cheaper to place a lower level of module rathen than a higher level of module. Nidan's design are illustrative of 2 different setup made to have the same speed, not illustrative of how beacons setups do vs non beacon setup.

As suggested by Nidan one can add an effiency module, or a speed module which seem to be the prefered option from previous user. In this case one has to add more effect than the only 3 speed 2 module in Nidan's test setup.


Concluding that "beacon setups are cheaper" is wrong not only because the comparaison is only between 2 different setup and not at all beacons setup in general . But also because you may need more ore total to repay for the cost depending on which module you use and which setup you use, mining productivity bonus are only generated on raw ore from the map. They may or may not repay for themselves before you run out not or can't replace them fast enough.

The correct wording would be : between setup 1 and setup 2 one repay itself faster providing you change your mining drill more often, the one.the one that repays for itself in 6h52 has beacon the other one 7h40 min or so. The difference in energy cost is debatable as one would require to remove every beacon that power depleted mining drill immediatly to achieve a net gain.

Any different combinaison of beacon / module would give a different answer.
Last edited by mmmPI on Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by jodokus31 »

Khagan wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:58 am
mrvn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 pm
Maybe there is something to be said for efficiency modules in miners. 2 efficiency module 2 in each miner and you cut the energy and pollution down to 20%.
3 efficiency 1 does the same job for a fraction of the cost. EM1 are not silly if you really want to keep pollution down, and since mining patches are often on the edges of defended territory they are a particularly desirable place to do so. But even if you also want efficiency for the power savings (presumably because you are not using nuclear power) higher level EMs are just not worth the cost.
Efficiency modules 1 are even considered OP for Deathworlds by some people. At least in the beginning, where aliens are a real threat.
I even created a mod to rebalance that for my own challenge to make it less a no-brainer:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/spice-rack-pollution

But, it's a certain defensive playstyle, which not all people prefer.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by blazespinnaker »

Doing DW without eff modules is real craziness.

Some guy did a speed run, but he pre-selected the perfect map for it. Which is way cheating when it comes to DW, imho.

Krastorio has this cool machine which sucks up pollution. I also like what they do with trees, but the nuclear thing is irritating and the mod seems like just more recipies and not cohesive like SE.
OptimaUPS Mod, pm for info.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

I really miss that I can't plant trees in vanilla. After the start wood becomes just annoying. Burning it causes pollution which you might want to avoid. And you don't need that many wooden poles or chests. Would be nice if trees could be transplanted or even more created where I want them.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Danjen »

What I'd love to see is combat modules for turrets. Eg something that reduces attack speed but increases damage, or shoots faster and reduces damage, etc. It might make the game feel more like tower defence, but being able to specialize turrets a bit more is a fun idea (and I'm pretty sure some mods already do this)

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

Danjen wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 pm
What I'd love to see is combat modules for turrets. Eg something that reduces attack speed but increases damage, or shoots faster and reduces damage, etc. It might make the game feel more like tower defence, but being able to specialize turrets a bit more is a fun idea (and I'm pretty sure some mods already do this)
I can't remember what mod it was but it added sniper turrets. Slow repetition but greater range. And research to increase range. Because you have to stay ahead of the evolution of worms increasing their range and killing your turret creep.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mrvn wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:10 pm
Danjen wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 pm
What I'd love to see is combat modules for turrets. Eg something that reduces attack speed but increases damage, or shoots faster and reduces damage, etc. It might make the game feel more like tower defence, but being able to specialize turrets a bit more is a fun idea (and I'm pretty sure some mods already do this)
I can't remember what mod it was but it added sniper turrets. Slow repetition but greater range. And research to increase range. Because you have to stay ahead of the evolution of worms increasing their range and killing your turret creep.
Long Range Turret by Yehn (there’s another one out there that appears to be someone’s personal edit of Yehn’s, but doesn’t give credit or explain the differences).

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by Jane23s »

I'd like to add some mod for turrets to reduce damage or to make shots faster.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mrvn »

Jane23s wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:02 am
I'd like to add some mod for turrets to reduce damage or to make shots faster.
Love modules. Like productivity but every time the bar reaches 100% a bullet is replaced by a poppy flower.

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Re: why prod modules are important

Post by mmmPI »

Jane23s wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:02 am
I'd like to add some mod for turrets to reduce damage or to make shots faster.
Do you mean module or mod like from the mod portal ?

module for turret could definitly be more useful than productivity module in mining drill as they would spare ammunition which are composed of multiple ore compared to placing them in mining drill which is the worst place for productivity module.

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