What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

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Drakken
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What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

I used to know where to find this information as some awesome person calculated it out. But alas it has been over a year since I have played and my searches have come up empty. In the past, when I am playing a very hard game, I have always improved the richness of resource deposits to make sure I have enough resources at least somewhat close by.

I am looking to do a very very hard Deathworld Marathon run with minimal trees, desert, no water, etc. etc. Also, no solar, lasers, or bots. So basically a long lasting pleasurable type of self torture.

However, what I need to know is the total cost in resources needed to research and launch a rocket to finish the game. I know my base and defense costs will drive up the price to finish.

So... hopefully someone knows the minimum cost in raw resources (copper, iron, oil, coal, stone) to finish the game on marathon so I can see if it is even possible with the preset resource settings. Since on Deathworld Marathon expanding your base very far away is almost impossible to achieve.

Thank you to anyone who knows where to find this information!

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by FuryoftheStars »

I've never played at these settings but am generally curious, how would one really calculate that? Putting aside the defense costs as you mentioned, wouldn't it also heavily depend on how many assemblers/oil refineries/etc you build? I mean, you could probably theoretically finish the game by only ever building one of each, or just one of each for each type of product you need. But then that'd take a very, very long time to finish. Conversely, finishing faster means building more of everything.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

What I am looking for is mostly the research cost for all of the researches to get to the rocket and then the added rocket cost.

The cost of the factory itself is actually much much less than the thousands of advanced potions needed to tech up to the rocket itself. Defenses have a big cost as well, but it is still dwarfed by the cost of the potions for technology.

The costs for the potions for each tech is fixed and someone has done the calculations already. I was hoping someone knew where they are so I don't have to do all of the work required.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Ah, apologies, I missed the "research" part of all of that. :P

I'm afraid I've never seen what you are looking for, sorry.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by SoShootMe »

Researching Rocket silo and all prerequisites (recursively) with expensive technologies and price multiplier 4 (for applicable technologies), a script I wrote says you need:

22970 automation-science-pack
22260 logistic-science-pack
14600 chemical-science-pack
6400 production-science-pack
5200 utility-science-pack

To produce all of that and 100 rocket parts with expensive recipes, https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... H1q9g3B/AB says you need (rounded):

1.75M iron ore
1.38M copper ore
207k coal
74.7k stone
4.74M crude oil

However, in addition to ignoring the cost of the factory itself and defences, this is based on the bare minimum technology cost which is probably not practical - eg no military research. On the other hand, it doesn't account for any use of productivity modules which it might be possible to use to give an appreciable net saving (after crafting the modules themselves) for the production science packs, utility science packs and rocket parts. Similarly, researching mining productivity bonus 1 and 2 might be worthwhile.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

Thank you so much! This helps determine the playability of maps. I would hate to get 40 hours into a map and realize it is almost impossible to win.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by BlueTemplar »

Since on Deathworld Marathon expanding your base very far away is almost impossible to achieve.
Not at all ?
It's part of the requirement anyway, since by definition, oil doesn't spawn in your starting area :
Image
(Note that there was oil halfway closer, but a bit too close to a nest...)
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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

It is hard for me to see where the oil actually is on that image. Is it the lower left base? If so, how are you getting the oil back to the main base? I don't see any infrastructure between the two?

All I can say is nice work... I do stand corrected and I often do not explain myself well on these forums...

I suppose my idea of the starting area is much larger than the game's "actual starting area" in which, you are correct, there is no oil. I consider the starting area to be about 1/2 of the way between the wreck site "starting position" and the edge of the map preview area. If the oil is past the outer half of the preview image, I can't seem to get to it before the biters evolve enough to overwhelm my pre-oil defenses. This is especially true if I have to destroy biter bases to get to it, which makes the evolution spike. AND once resources are more than half way to the edge of the preview area you almost always have biter bases in the way.

Obviously, the map spawn means a lot. I do not spawn maps to find an easier one. I spawn maps that puts the game on the very edge of win-ability. At least for someone of my skill level. I am no speed pro nor can I fight with my toon like a first person shooter. But I can make good decisions and designs that are very efficient in the long run.

What I should have said if I was being precise... DeathWorld Marathon with... max sand, minimal dirt, min grass, min trees, and no water/cliffs to create natural barriers, without using lasers, solar panels, or robots, makes it extremely difficult to expand your base more than half way to the edge of the preview of a map to get to oil and the additional resources needed to launch the rocket.

Finally, the real key is the oil. Flamethrower turrets are the key to getting past the beginning stages of DW/M and into the midgame where you can actually protect your base and ultimately win.

Edit... Not that it matters much because there is only one patch of water, but I do not use the fish either. Never thought instant healing was a good game mechanic. In fact, I have never caught, nor eaten a fish in over a thousand hours of this game. Kinda funny how we all play the way we think the game should be instead of how it is...

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by aka13 »

Drakken wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:56 am
Obviously, the map spawn means a lot. I do not spawn maps to find an easier one. I spawn maps that puts the game on the very edge of win-ability. At least for someone of my skill level. I am no speed pro nor can I fight with my toon like a first person shooter. But I can make good decisions and designs that are very efficient in the long run.
I don't think it comes down to that, I would even say, the trick is exactly the opposite. Don't overbuild, don't clear out nests to soon, don't consume stuff you don't need.
I have "just" started a new deathworld marathon, with default settings. I consider cliffs to be a hindrance to me, and not to biters, building a factory in the beginning, when you don't have cliff explosives, and can't afford them.
Water bodies bring a bit of safety, but not too much - I started out only having my back covered by one of them, and only managed to find/block off other ones, where I didn't need their protection already.
Screenshot 2022-01-14 095624.png
Screenshot 2022-01-14 095624.png (590.75 KiB) Viewed 1707 times
I find maps without water rather disappointing - you can't really produce power without water, no wells can be build - and ExplosiveExcavation is not part of vanilla, so you cant create a small well for your nuclear/coal needs.
You also should not forget, that while water may be used as cover, water is even worse than sand at eating pollution - so you end up aggroing more spawners, than you otherwise would:
Screenshot 2022-01-14 095428.png
Screenshot 2022-01-14 095428.png (118.38 KiB) Viewed 1707 times

Started out in the sands, as you see. I also try to finally do the two achievements "Raining bullets" and "steam all the way".

A couple of tips I can give:
1) Build small clove-leaf like outposts of 4-turrets in the beginning, at the perimeters of the area available to you, to prevent expansion. Clearing out nests by hand will be very tough and an unneeded evolution buff.
2) Beeline to oil, and to flamethrowers, if you don't make it to flamethrowers as fast as you can, your life will be tough.
3) After oil your life will be simpler, and I would try and go for the robots, because then you can then automate repairs and concentrate on the rest of your factory.
4) Go for the tank and explosive shells so you can clear out land for expansion. Don't try to expand the base too much, rather focus on outposts.
5) You don't have to protect the rails, 99% of the times biters will ignore them.
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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

I think there are two ways to play DW/M. One is the slow roll, thus controlling pollution. The second is to produce exactly what you need but fast enough and in enough abundance that you can protect yourself from biters. I think option number one works better for maps with more pollution absorption. I think the second method is better on maps with very little pollution absorption. Either way time is also a factor, although they toned "time evolution" down with one of the patches years ago.

You always have water at the start of the game (you can't even get started without it). But it is just one small source. No other water on the map anywhere. It ups the difficulty because you have to run power everywhere from your main base. AND you have to then take the chance that those lines will be cut by biters (or you can try to protect them). AND being able to be attacked from all directions with no choke points is harder IMHO. AND without bots, repairing/protecting the far flung resource outposts can be really hard and time consuming. AND water for your production facilities also have to come from the starter base.

The absorption of pollution is minimal for both sand and water. Desert, dirt, and grass increase it a little bit also but not much. Trees are the real pollution absorbers. Trees are what makes DW/M easier by a huge amount. A forest can stop pollution from expanding in one direction almost compIetely. At least long enough to make it to flame turrets.

I make my maps to absorb as little pollution as possible and yet leave open avenues in all directions for me to be attacked. I find this the hardest way to play, but to each their own.

I have seen the clover style defense before. I have not done it and perhaps I will give it a try to protect distant resources from spawner expansion. Usually I play maps that don't have unprotected resources nearby. I like to fight for them.

I am simply playing a different style than you are. Obviously if people are eliminating some of the features in the game, strategies have to be altered.

Thanks for the advice. Good luck with your games.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by blazespinnaker »

DW marathon isn't really that much of a challenge (just manage your pollution), though perhaps without bots I can see it being overly tedious though still doable.

But bots are 50% of factorio though, so really not sure about that.

If you want a real challenge, try DW Rampant. With bots, solar, lasers, water, trees, etc.
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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:01 pm
DW marathon isn't really that much of a challenge (just manage your pollution), though perhaps without bots I can see it being overly tedious though still doable.

But bots are 50% of factorio though, so really not sure about that.

If you want a real challenge, try DW Rampant. With bots, solar, lasers, water, trees, etc.
Wow, not much of a challenge, I guess I just suck at this game... ;) :lol:

I don't doubt Rampant is challenging. Perhaps I will try it some day. However, I don't really like playing with unofficial mods as they are rarely standardized or balanced. Right now, I am testing to see what the limits of vanilla playability are.

You might just be an awesome player, but from what you are saying, I don't think you have played with the type of map settings I am describing. Controlling pollution helps, and I do everything I can to be as efficient as possible. But that is not the answer in this scenario. I am in sand, with no grass, almost no trees to be seen. The terrain simply does not absorb enough pollution to prevent the cloud from reaching the nearest nests in a 75% sized starting area that you get with DW/Mar. Even with a minimalist 6 electric miner, one boiler setup I start out with, my pollution clouds extend to the 3-5 closest biter bases. There are no natural defenses like lakes or cliffs to protect the base. I tear down all burner miners within the first 15 minutes, rarely have more than 9 working in the first place, and hand mine as much as I can to start out.

Obviously the difficulty of the game depends on the spawn. I have little doubt that most players respawn until they get an decent setup. I do just the opposite according to my house rules. If I somehow, despite the hard map settings, spawn in a grassy area or there is a forest nearby, that map is no good. I also do not allow for any additional resources to be within the viewing area at game start. If I spawn and can see additional patches of resources or oil, on the map, it is no good. So, any oil, additional iron, coal, or copper has to be outside of this initial viewing area which means they are certainly behind the first and usually several layers of biter nests. This means when you do expand for oil or more iron you are going to have to fight for it and also drive the evolution factor up by a lot.

I did not mention that I also increase the frequency of biter nests in the "enemy settings" from default DW 200% up to the max at 600%. However, even at the base DW/M 200% frequency of biter nests, if you go so slow as to prevent the pollution from hitting the spawners, the time evolution factor will kill you in a few hours. You have to have a belt fed turret perimeter with walls up and substantial ammo production by the time medium biters arrive (that is about 5 hours with ZERO pollution contributing to evolution) You need a maximum density turret defense by the time spitters start spawning which is soon after the medium biters. Even with a perimeter full of guns, you often lose a few turrets to spitters with every large wave of bugs. As you try to progress to military potions and oil processing things get really challenging and in my experience it can be touch and go. I lose on a lot of maps in this stage and on many more before I can even get to turrets. Sometimes the starting area is just too small and the biters start coming at 15 or 20 minutes in.

But here is the problem with your advice to just manage your pollution. The minimum amount of pollution to get to flamethrower turrets (which are the key) is fixed. So the enemy is going to evolve the same amount due to researching through the tech tree no matter how slow you go. AND the slower you go the more time contributes to the evolution factor. So... Moving steadily forward and yet as efficiently as possible is the name of the game with a map like this. I agree with you that slower works pretty well on maps with a lot more pollution absorption because you can reduce the number of attacks and their size. On the maps I play, you saturate the terrain around you with pollution with barely any base built at all. You can't hand mine the materials on DW/Marathon to progress through the tech tree. Electric Miners and furnaces are as efficient as you can get in the early game. You can't use efficiency modules because researching them is even more pollution than going straight to the flamethrowers. If you progress too slowly the biter evolution due to time will kill you before you could ever get to flamethrower turrets.

As for bots being 50% of the game? IMHO bots detract 100% from what this game is about. In a couple of thousand hours in this game, I have never ever built one. I believe, you don't have to think about efficient pathing of resources at all when the bots are flying all over the place delivering things. If I don't have to think about where to place my assembly machines then I am no longer playing Factorio.

Yes, running around repairing your defenses from waves of bugs is tedious and a lot of work. Being able to do so and still expand your factory is harder yet. That is what makes this so difficult. At least it is for me. For some reason, I like it this way. Others like to build more peacefully and that is what makes Factorio so incredible!

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by blazespinnaker »

'frequency of biter nests in the "enemy settings" from default DW 200% up to the max at 600%.'

Yeah, that'd be a pain for sure. Though still doable I think. Your map settings aren't an issue for me, I've tried them all.

Sounds like you're tearing down bases, which is good, as that's what you have to do - a lot. Until you get land mines (which you should be rushing for), you shouldn't set up a permanent base. Land mines are really very important as you can use them sparingly and still do maximum AOE damage. Their cost/benefit compared to turrets is huge. The problem with flame is that it's hard to use tactically, plus you want to save your oil for teching up.

Time is an issue for sure, but trying to beat the clock is near impossible in DW marathon (at least for me) so I don't bother. Upgrade your land mines, they can soften up the behemoths sufficiently.

DW Rampant is far more interesting than DW marathon though. It actually requires imaginative tactics and is quite hard.

Tearing down bases in DW rampant just doesn't work like it does in DW marathon. My trick right now I'm working on is building out a base in the water as fast as possible, but I'm not sure I can get past a certain level of evolution where the mobs get too hard. Drawing oil just into barrels only, no pipes. The part where they take out infrastructure is also very testing. Phermones. There's also a much wider array of mobs to deal with. Very interesting for a PVE game.

Trying to rely on landmines with DW Rampant doesn't work either. Some carefully thought out combination of walls, lasers, magazines, and flame is likely required. Landmines are OK, but be careful not to place them where they get blown away by flame.

You mentioned balance, but you're removing bots from the game. That seems rather contrary to your statements. Personally, I'd rather play a game with bots (factorio without bots really isn't factorio to me, plus solar, etc) especially if I'm going to launch a rocket.

If you think bots make the game too easy, try playing DW Rampant. Good luck with that.

Also, having done it, I have to say marathon is the definition of tedium. I'd rather something trickier but with cheaper tech / resources.


btw, you posted a thread about this awhile ago in which we discussed this further:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=88833&start=80
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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by Drakken »

I remember the other thread. I didn't mean for this thread to rehash those old discussions. In reality, I just wanted to find the marathon costs.

I ended up beating the map with the 600% frequency of biter bases. So... now I have reduced the starting area to the minimum 17% size. It sounds extreme, but it appears that once you shrink the starting area down to 50% further shrinkage doesn't seem to make the biter bases change much more. However, with settings like this, it does take some respawning to make a map where the biter bases are not literally sitting on top of your resources. I am keeping the rest of the settings the same. As an interesting side note, on this spawn I literally have run out of trees I can reasonably reach for power poles. It was a map particularly devoid of trees.

My first attempt with the new tiny starting area was a failure because my ammo production couldn't keep up with the attacks 5ish hours into the game. My starting iron was getting low as well. Although I did make it to oil processing, I couldn't get to flamethrowers as I watched my ammo supply dwindle. I am going to retry that spawn and try taking out a few bases that are closest to me. With these settings the bugs are really close to my starting resources. Just getting to turrets before the first waves of attacks takes precise early play. The total lack of coal rocks in sand terrain doesn't help the start either.

I think land mines are great but they cost quite a bit more research than the flame turrets do. I do make use of hand grenades when clearing bases and to harm large attacks when I happen to be in the right place. I also use mines later, but I usually gain stability once the flame turrets are up. I will send you a PM to continue this discussion going forward. Take care.

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Re: What is the total cost to launch a rocket in marathon?

Post by blazespinnaker »

Ah, ok, well that was quick.

Marathon DW games take me literally forever to play. Tedious and slow, but if you are patient, fairly straightforward.

You might be going faster, in which case it would be more challenging.
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