How maps should look like

[ssilk]

The map generator will be rewritten... I don't want to open some new unplanned things for the developers, I just want to talk about it.

First I introduce new terms.
There are 4 zones around the starting point: Cloase, near, far and distant.
- Close is what you see zoomed out from your starting place and will take only 10-20 secs to reach.
- Near is farer away , outside of your view, maybe visible with the radar. It takes about 1 or 2 minutes to reach that zone.
- Far is more away. You need 1-2 minutes with a car or five by feet or so. An advanced radar can scan this zone.
- Distant is very far. You need to drive more than 2 minutes to reach the distant zone.


CLOSE-Zone

Is the starting area, so this means, we need of course the 6 resources in reach. When zooming out, there should be some resources of each type available. Not too much!
There should be much flat land to built up.
But there should be also a big lake nearby. Big means in factorio it takes longer than a minute to walk around it. The resources shoudn't be of course on the other side, because that is the near-zone. The placement of the lake is so, that the resources are on one side and the lake on the other so you need to decide, if you want to take the lake as backing or want to built more near to the resources.
It might happen, that there is a creeper village in the close zone, but not so big.

Due to some logic thoughts I would prefer that the close-zone is gras-land.

NEAR-Zone

In this area are big resources, but mainly only one type of it in each direction. The creepers start to be here. The landscape is very different here and grasland will disapear.

FAR-Zone

dependend to the direction the landscape changes. See down. More creeper, resources will get very rare. Maybe only rare resources can be found here.

DISTANT-Zone

dependend to the direction the landscape changes. See down. More creeper, resources will get very rare. Maybe only rare resources can be found here.


Now, why I have introduced the zones and the trick: When you go further than the DISTANT-zone, the landscape returns to FAR, NEAR, and back to CLOSE (the point of view...) There is another starting area. We are now about 4-5 minutes away (by car!). I'll show how the map looks like:

Code: Select all

d = dirt, G = gras, H = hills, S = Sand, * = Starting-area

distant far    near    close   near  far    distant

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS  far
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd  near
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGG*GGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG  close
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddGGGGGGG
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS  near
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd  far
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd

This should be a very big map, it takes about 8 minutes to drive through this map! Looks wired, sorry, but it's really not so difficult to understand. See the legend at the top, one char mirrors just how the landscape should mainly look in a small area of about 30-1 minute to walk through.

In the center of the map is the starting zone. You need to scroll a little bit to see it. This is the CLOSE-area. Around it is the NEAR-area, then the FAR etc. I made lables at the side!

But when you look closer you see, that the landscape repeats. I'll explain: In the center there is gras, then to the right are hills, then dirt and then gras again. This is the next "starting"-zone! And this repeats in every direction! So from the next big gras-land-area, the area looks not so very different as from the first one.

Why so far?

Well. It is clear, that you cannot built a belt over this distance! It would take 15 minutes with the normal belts, until the stuff receives in your factory. It is also clear, that to built a power-line will take over 15 minutes or so. If the resources run out in the first starting area you need to search for it in the distance. Long range radar is needed, because you want to find a way through low creeper-settled land. You need to drive there, built new steam engines, built mines, locomotives (I hope there is some robots, which will help you) and then you can reach this area much faster by train.

In multiplayer this can be the starting point of the co-player. Or - if there is a big river inbetween - the starting point of the opponent. In some other szenarios, this is the target-zone.

When you look closer into the map generation, this idea should also make things easier: There are about 3 levels of detail. First is the big concept of "big areas" or ranges. This is easy to generate. This can of course be modified.

Code: Select all

distant far    near    close   near  far    distant
dddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddWdddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddddHHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
dddWWWdHHHHHHHdddWdWdddddddWWWHHHHHHdddddddddddddd
GWWWWWGHHHHHHHdddWddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddddddWGGGGGG
GWWWWWWWHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHWWWdddddWWWGWGGGG
GGGGWWWWHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHWdddddWWWWWGGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHdddWWdddGGG*GWWWHHHHHWWWdddddGWWWGGG  close
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddWWddGGGWWWWWWHHHHHWWWddddWWWWGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGWWWWGHHHHHHHWWdddddGWWWGGG
GGGGGGGHHHHHHHddddddddGGGGGGGHHHHHHHddWddddGGGGGGG
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHWWHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHWHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHWWHWHSSSSSSS  near

Now I painted the water in. Imagine now, that you may alter the landscape by exchanging neighbor-fields by random. 1, 2 or more times. Then the map is much more diverse, but the average amount of sand vs. hills keeps the same. Imagine, there are also the resources painted in, they will also keep the same amount. Imagine, that the more distant from the center you get, the probability of water increases.

The final map generation (level 3) now takes a tile and surrounding tiles and renders the final map out of it. It can be done making 4 tiles out of one in every turn, then alter this again, until the final resolution is reached. I forgot how this algorithm is called, but comes from fractal generation of landscape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_landscape


Ok. Maybe, the current map-generation works more or less like this and in the end this article got too techniclal, too detailed, but what I meant is this idea of repeating the landscape and make it really huge this way but not unforeseeable. I think a playable area isn't just generated with some formulas, in the end every detail must be controlled.

And this is so important: I would like to generate a map and will be sure, that it is playable, that there is a - maybe configurable amount of resources in the close, near, far etc. ranges. I want to be sure that I can play it. A new player won't belive how big it is. He will be told, that the next resources are far away and he may give up the first time. But then he tries it again and will really find new resources after he had crossed the dessert and nearly died from the creepers.

I want to see prominent lines of landscape, I want to see endless desserts&sand. But also gigantic forests or a hole city of creepers. Maybe a river which leads me to an ocean, maybe a cut in the landscape...

As said, I want to start a discussion, if that are useable targets and how the current or coming map-generation meets that targets; I would not like to have that all reprogrammed just because of writing an stupid idea down...

[MF-]

(no real opinion on the principle, just a handful of not-really-thought-through notes)

I, unfortunately, don't see anything in your images.
I think I used to have a tool that could convert letters to colours somewhere...

Wouldn't that push you to repeatedly tear down and rebuild your factory?
What exactly should prevent me from quitting when the resources run out in my oasis?

How would you reason about the lack of resources in mountains?

btw: it is possible to build power lines while driving in a car.

[ssilk]

I, unfortunately, don't see anything in your images.
I think I used to have a tool that could convert letters to colours somewhere...

Hmmm. A map could be displayed either with vectors (lines, circles) or with dots in different colors. Imagine every letter in the map above is a color.

Wouldn't that push you to repeatedly tear down and rebuild your factory?

Good point. Maybe. I mean, perhaps it is a strategic decision. And why not? Even then I think it is maybe easier to make that with a train. And could that be no good target? Build on the same map anew factory. Hmmmm.

What exactly should prevent me from quitting when the resources run out in my oasis?

The secret target. Which we don't have. Yet.

How would you reason about the lack of resources in mountains?

Not. I mean it is an example. To call it "hills" leads to the same question.

btw: it is possible to build power lines while driving in a car.

Never heard. Learning everyday new stuff I would think it is complicated cause you need to know how long to the next pole.

[MF-]

Never heard. Learning everyday new stuff I would think it is complicated cause you need to know how long to the next pole.

Oh, you haven't heard about the "building when running" feature?
Just hold the building button and run.

[MF-]

Imagine every letter in the map above is a color.

That is the part that causes a problem for me.

I don't think people can read letters while perceiving them as colours.
If they could, children would be tested with this picture (aside from the colourful variant) http://xkcd.com/1213/

EDIT: Or, better: http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1213
It has a coloured version in the middle, explaining how someone with synesthesia might perceive it. (But probably not, as the footer says)

[cube]

What you are suggesting is kind of simillar to what's planned for the next version. We will have a starting area, even though smaller than you are mentioning, that has high probability of having all the resources and water (this already is in 0.5.1, but there will be some more tuning).

Further from the starting point the world will go in a large random "waves" (instead of the regular grid you described), with areas rich in resources / forrests / creepers alternating with empty spaces (driven by multioctave perlin noise, if anyone is interested in the details). Currently (0.5.x) this concept kinda works for water. Tiles, each resource and other content will be generated almost independently, but observing some rules about how they can mix up, so you will see greenery near lakes, deserts almost without life and stuff in between. Later, also creeper settlement style will hopefully be controlled by this and I hope to keep adding world styles.

Maximal size of these waves and the average ammount of every item on the map will be customizable using the frequency / segmentation selectors we already have (renaming these sounds like a good idea, though )

It's very hard to guarantee that the map is playable, but what I'm trying is to make the game difficulty uniform across the generated maps, without making them too predictable. Other than that i'd like to make the trains more useful and hopefuly also to make exploration of the world more fun.

[ssilk]

@mf-: Sorry, I've been used to show into megabytes of logfiles every day. I saw the comic and immediately saw, that there is something with the digits. But I understand, that it isn't quite normal. I'll try to make a detailed example in full-color

@cube:
With the perlin noise you can create maps, which will have with high probability the wanted characteristics over the hole map.
But as a player or a game-designer I want to have the guarantee, that it has some characteristics in some special areas.

Stupid idea: Combine fractal generation with perlin noise. The landscape and type is generated with perlin noise like now, but for the much bigger parts a fractal map tells the perlin-noise-generator what kind of landscape it should generate. Fractal generator, because this means, that the tiles can have different size... I thinks it generates a more realistic landscape, if there are parts, which contain nearly nothing and other parts, which are full of different things and - very important - parts, which are the game target. (Ahm, I hope there is a game target?)

Because I suggest it: I see, that the players (inlcuding me) tend to generate a map, which is obviously solvable. They don't have the confidence, that there are enough resources anywhere, they don't like to run around in danger of beeing killed. They need to see it from beginning. So they generate a map, which serves this needs. And so there is no need to use the locomotives, no need to drive much around.

And no, I don't want to change this now! Really! No need to! Lets first make clear, if this is really what is wanted/needed and why.

[ficolas]

If smp is played on a "competitive mode" or "pvp mode" maybe creepers will be a problem, a idea is that creepers dont start to attack you until you start to modify the planet.

[ssilk]

Oh, you haven't heard about the "building when running" feature?
Just hold the building button and run.

Maybe I'm too old: Of course I know this building when running. But never came to the idea, that it would work while sitting in the car. Whoever drove a car knows why. And when it works in the car, then also in the train. How crazy is that?

[MF-]

Whoever drove a car knows why. And when it works in the car, then also in the train. How crazy is that?

Not much. Trains are easier to operate, which can leave you with both hands free for stabbing poles into ground.

Building a railway in order to build a power line? Yes, that is pretty crazy

[ssilk]

Lol.

Btw. I found out by accident, that it is quite easy to overrun creeper-villages by car. The car is really hard to drive and moves totally crazy (perhaps I will write something about it because so difficult to drive), so I drove down a creeper building by accident. And survived. After some tries I found, that the car just must be placed right before a rocket or gun, enter, full speed and bammm... nice - was really fun.
After this get out of car, pick up the car to repair it and repeat. I managed to take a village of 4 houses 4 guns and two rockets down in one turn. Never earned eggs faster.

[wrtlprnft]

This was kind of less cheaty in original versions, because you couldn't mine your car.

[MF-]

The car is really hard to drive and moves totally crazy (perhaps I will write something about it because so difficult to drive)

It might help to put your hands on the steering wheel (mouseover your car while driving)