Pirating Factorio

[FreeER]

Maybe we should lock the thread and all behave like nice people again....

Well, two problems with this.
1) locking it would be paramount to censorship, though it's entirely up to the devs really
2) having this topic allow it's discussion while keeping (most of) the flames it spawns from devouring the rest of the forum, though admittedly it's a bit difficult to stay entirely on topic

I do agree with the difficult to enforce and enraging comment however.
As to arguing on the internet...well, hm, that's a bit of a broad statement. The real problems with arguing on the internet is 1) nonverbal communication and 2) there will always be someone else who hasn't heard the argument. Beyond that it has the same issues with arguing in real life, occasionally you encounter people who simply refuse to accept your logic (for several reasons, sometimes quite valid reasons) so the argument can never end unless you simply ignore all argumentative statements made by the other(s).

I'd like to paraphrase something I sent to malokin just recently: You choose to disregard the norms of social interaction because you see it as hampering societal improvement as well as a mask for real feelings and thoughts, however by doing so your personality clashes with that of people who don't or can't understand that they are norms and not absolute rules of social interaction. Since they do not understand it they think you're nothing more than an ignorant person and need to be corrected or "rehabilitated".

[TGS]

Malokin.. OY!
I understand that perhaps english isn't your mother tongue, but I think you're being overly defensive and aggressive when reading others posts.
There have been lots of people being positive to piracy as a means of being able to try out games before buying them in this thread and except for TGS noone has seemed to taken any actual offense at your posts.

I wasn't actually offended by malokin so much as the disrespect shown for the devs by not just coming to the forum and openly touting piracy, but flaunting it at the same time. That is what offended me. If malokin came in, peacefully and asked if it was okay. Or presented their case in a thoughtful manner as they've now started doing I would have been fine with it. As long as the devs are okay with it I don't see a problem with it.

Personally I think if they're going to allow someone to constantly post torrent links to the full game on the forum, they might as well just release the full game and turn the "buy" link into a "donate" link. Now I know the leap would be an intentional one at that point, but if the devs are truly okay with it then they need to show that. Otherwise it appears to just be 'non-action'. Which in turn creates a slippery slope on this particular thread because people are going to keep thinking "Wtf?".

I do believe the thread needs to be locked and they should request that malokin stop. Malokin, I respect your beliefs regarding freedom of information. But you yourself seem to appreciate the game. So even if you are costing the devs $10 here and there because of people who are finding YOUR torrent links and downloading the game. That to me is not cool.

From a strictly belief point of view though, I don't consider games to be 'information'. Which is where this all becomes very tedious. "Freedom of information" is very dangerous. If you said from here on no software/game developer would ever make another cent because by law their software must be distributed freely, why would they bother doing it anymore? I mean I know a lot of people make games for fun. But they'd have to make the games while working another job to support themselves. Unless of course someone with too much money comes along and 'donates' a significant amount. This is where crowd sourcing is good, but still not entirely sustainable. Then there is another issue with FoI. Personal information. Is everyone entitled to information about everyone else? What about peoples social security numbers? Bank numbers? PIN numbers? Money? Property? Where does this line of thought stop? What is 'protected' information vs 'unprotected' information?

Now I'm not saying this to start more flaming or more aggressive discussion so if anyone responds as such, they aren't going to get anything in return from me. And I would hope no one else.

[n9103]

If you said from here on no software/game developer would ever make another cent because by law their software must be distributed freely, why would they bother doing it anymore? I mean I know a lot of people make games for fun. But they'd have to make the games while working another job to support themselves. Unless of course someone with too much money comes along and 'donates' a significant amount. This is where crowd sourcing is good, but still not entirely sustainable.

Just a quick note that the largest indie game of all time (depending on your definition, but most definitions would agree,) is entirely donation supported, and that the author hasn't had a job for several years now.
I refer of course, to Dwarf Fortress, the (fantasy) World Simulator.

[TGS]

If you said from here on no software/game developer would ever make another cent because by law their software must be distributed freely, why would they bother doing it anymore? I mean I know a lot of people make games for fun. But they'd have to make the games while working another job to support themselves. Unless of course someone with too much money comes along and 'donates' a significant amount. This is where crowd sourcing is good, but still not entirely sustainable.

Just a quick note that the largest indie game of all time (depending on your definition, but most definitions would agree,) is entirely donation supported, and that the author hasn't had a job for several years now.
I refer of course, to Dwarf Fortress, the (fantasy) World Simulator.

Of course. I never said or meant to imply that this model does not or cannot work. But the incentive to do it would drop drastically. It would shift the scales towards indie studios a lot though, given that the big producers and developers are heavily focused on big cost -> big reward models. I firmly believe that if someone does good work, they should be paid for it. It is not wrong for them to expect to be paid. Programming/creating a game is no exception to this rule. Creating art is no exception to this rule. Creating media is no exception to this rule.

I get that information should be free. I even agree, ESPECIALLY with regards to the growing trend of companies putting out crappy software/games/products that would never have come close to meeting any reasonable persons standards. And charging a considerably high price for it to boot! To me that is like those dirty used car salesman that constantly try to sell people crappy cars for far more than what they are really worth, even going so far as to lie about said vehicle to achieve the sale.

At the end of the day though... this is just not one of those games where the devs are out to screw anybody. I haven't tried the demo recently, but I did play the demo before purchasing. I honestly think it is more than enough to gauge whether or not you wish to purchase. I guess my main issue here isn't the issue of piracy. Because it really is up to the devs to decide how they feel about it. It's the attitude with which said piracy has occured. Many pirates are freeloaders and have a very bad attitude towards content producers (Game devs included) right out the gate. That is where I take issue. How much it costs them in lost sales I really don't know. And really it isn't my place to speculate on. All I know is that I want the Factorio devs to get as much money as they possibly can. For a few reasons. 1. To reward them for their awesome job. 2. To sustain them so they can continue to work on the awesome game. 3. So if they wish they can choose to live comfortable lives when they move on from the game. Whenever that may be. Lost sales are lost sales. Be it $10 or $10,000 going into the specifics of how is kind of pointless. But I would think... that anyone here who genuinely likes Factorio and the developers would WANT them to get as much for it as possible.

And sorry, I really don't agree that having the game on torrent sites will really provide many additional legitimate customers. Maybe it might when multiplayer comes around. But in my experience single player games don't really get that much benefit from torrenting due to the simple fact that people will play the game for a few hundred hours... enjoy it. Then shelf it. If they aren't gonna pay for 5 hours... they probably aren't gonna pay for 500.

Forgive the rant though, it's 4:30am and I'm awake for some silly reason lol.

Oh and P.S. Dwarf fortress is a pretty impressive exception when it comes to how it's funding works. DF is an amazing game with an absolutely stunning community. I could never get into it myself that much, but you'd have to be pretty thick not to understand how it sustains itself on donations lol.

[malokin]

Meh, I could copy paste the long posts explaining in detail about how i didnt make this thread, about how I want every man woman and child on the earth to play factorio even if they cant pay for it, how artists have to share their work with the public they release it to whether they like it or not. But if TGS wants a response to the things he's said he just needs to reread the posts from a page or two ago.

I stepped over my own usual boundary line a little more than usual saying that the devs dont get my pity for quitting their jobs. So if you want to see some MAJOR "disrespect" (i'd call it lack of respect, but whatever) then I'd definitely recommend those posts to ya TGS.

To clarify, when I say that all these works of art should be free information for all, what I mean is:
One of the duties of man (of course we're getting into my personal philosophies here) is to collect and create a library of all the good works of man (and even all the bad works of man, hitler propaganda etc) and create a library, an archive of those works. The next step is to make it so every single man woman and child on the entire earth will have access to this archive which contains every single photo game movie etc etc.

If someone gets in the way of this pursuit, I am honor bound to fight them until I am dead.
edit: and i'd like to add we are doing a pretty good job
pret-ty pret-ty pretty good.

[malokin]

You seem to be confused

Licensing one copy of the compiled product for your own use (the thing you did for 13$)

vs.

"Buying the game" aka sourcecode for (random number: 100.000$ and up)

I understand the difference, I just dont respect your right to sell me a "license." (Fancy word for a contract saying what I can and can't do with the thing you sold me)

If you sold me a copy of the game, its mine. Heart and Soul. And I can do what I want with it, despite what some "I Accept" style licensing agreement might have to say about it.

[BurnHard]

You are the person who I think is poisioning the climate in the whole forum here (and I am not the only one), regardless of the actual discussion and subject. That's the last thing I am going to say to you and in the future I will not waste a single second of my life talking with you again. Have a nice day.

[malokin]

Wait what, I told you I dont respect your right to tell me what I can and can't do with a thing you sold me and suddenly I am "poisoning" the forums? Your hilarious.

I really hope you stay gone because you very cowardly drop logical argument the moment someone DESTROYS your silly points about licensing agreements which infringe upon my freedom to play with the toys I bought in a free way. Good luck, I hope your silly, childish, pro-copyright ideas choke and DIE on my horrible horrible "poison".

[Robik]

Wait what, I told you I dont respect your right to tell me what I can and can't do with a thing you sold me and suddenly I am "poisoning" the forums? Your hilarious.

I really hope you stay gone because you very cowardly drop logical argument the moment someone DESTROYS your silly points about licensing agreements which infringe upon my freedom to play with the toys I bought in a free way. Good luck, I hope your silly, childish, pro-copyright ideas choke and DIE on my horrible horrible "poison".

So... you are uploading only toys you bought yourself?

Just curious.

[malokin]

Yes, I have never uploaded a torrent of a game I didn't buy first. (how would i have a copy to upload then unless I did something illegal like hack in and actually steal the game, THAT i consider stealing, and immoral) but by toys i was of course referring to "games" and other works of art.

Sorry if the, "global archive of man's works" made it sound like I'd smash in a window and steal the mona lisa, I wouldn't. But if someone signed an agreement (lets call it a licensing agreement) to have a 1 second PEAK at a high resolution copy of the monalisa, and then they leaked it, I would say that is legal and moral despite any licensing agreements. This is the risk a person must accept when they release that copy of the work. Copyright clowns, like the music movie and video game content creators, want to have their cake and eat it to. And they wrongly think they have the right to tell a person the proper way to eat a sandwich just because they were the one that invented the sandwich or because they sold the sandwich to that person.

[Robik]

Yes, I have never uploaded a torrent of a game I didn't buy first. (how would i have a copy to upload then unless I did something illegal like hack in and actually steal the game, THAT i consider stealing, and immoral) but by toys i was of course referring to "games" and other works of art.

Would you consider illegal uploading a game which someone who bought it first shared with you?

[Garm]

This thread needs to go.


Developers have already stated their stance. No point in discussing this topic further. If you want to talk about piracy it would be better done in offtopic forum imho.

[malokin]

Would you consider illegal uploading a game which someone who bought it first shared with you?

If my friend acquired the game properly, didnt somehow steal it from the artist, Well, then my friend has every right in the whole damn world to share the game with his family, with his friends, with his community, and with the world if her wants to. He can mush it mash it turn it upside down inside out remix it wipe his ass with it ANYTHING. Keep your laws off of the property I buy, what I do in the privacy of my own home or in public with goods I have legally aquired is quite frankly nobody's buisness but my own, not even the business of the person(s) who made the thing they sold to me.

Heh, I dont see the thread that way Garm, for me, this is the only place for piracy related links and to announce new releases in the pirate sphere of the factorio world.
"Developers have already stated their stance. No point in discussing this topic further."
All i hear is: The authorities have spoken, no more discussion should be allowed. Maybe people disagree with the devs and want to discuss how and why they disagree with the devs? Did you ever think of that? Or do you just not care about opinions different than your own or the developers?

The dev's answer to piracy doesn't really concern me, people who create content will always side with the money, and not side with the public playing with and modifying the game unabashed and unrestricted the way I do.

The devs are the ones that put this thread here, not me, i wouldnt create a piracy thread, so please dont criticize me for the thread being in the wrong category. They named this thread AND chose where to put it AND they left alot of the piracy related posts back in the thread this one was split from. The point of this thread (to me) is about pirating FACTORIO, not the legitimacy of piracy itself, although I do find myself having to explain myself and my beliefs just so that I can continue to talk about pirating factorio.

Would you like it better if we had one thread for discussion in offtopic of the legitimacy of piracy, and one thread where I announce that a new torrent has been released? I would like that very much. I want my own separate "torrent release thread" so people can ask me to drop the linux version or troubleshoot the torrents, and all that kind of stuff, but I havnt done that, because I dont really think it would be the right thing to do.

[n9103]

people who create content will always side with the money, and not side with the public playing with and modifying the game unabashed and unrestricted the way I do.

Ignorance and self-centric world view confirmed.

[malokin]

So, wanting to spread the game to the world makes me self-centered? I beleieve in the rights of the individual above the rights of the state, not just for me but for ALL individuals. You don't think devs wanting to get their cash for their own hard work isn't self-centered?

I don't blame people for trying to take care of themselves, but then again I do fight everyday for a universal library of all works of art games movies nooks etc to be free to the public.

How self centered of me.

[Gammro]

Just a question: If you really want the source code, why don't you decompile everything? Factually, you already got the information you want, just in a slightly obfuscated form.

[malokin]

Shit, now I want to take a stab at me.

people who create content will always side with the money, and not side with the public playing with and modifying the game unabashed and unrestricted the way I do.

That was far too cynical of me, someday, developers wont just care about the money, someday in the far future it's my belief every developer will release a torrent of their own work the moment they finish.
But developers TODAY are too worried about losing $$$ to think piracy is okay.

[Nova]

Malokin, your "world view" doesn't work. There are not enough people in the ("rich") world who think: "I like the game and I donate some money." - Your point of view is even counterproductive for the small indie games. Many people, who could program a nice game, don't have the time for it. They need to do another job to live their normal life. Some people try to quit their job and live only with the money from the sales of their game. This doesn't work with too much piracy, because piracy hurts the developer, that's not debatable. The only thing arguable is how much it hurts.
And no, I don't think you have every right do and don't do what you want with the program. Specifically the source code is property of the developer, so I have the opinion that you shouldn't publish it. Only the devs have the right to do so, regardless of whether you have bought the game or not. If you want to decompile it, carry on, but just do not let it leave your hard drive.
In my opinion, you can try out a game through torrents, but you should not just download it and never pay for it, if you like it. That's not an easy point of view. When do you try and when do you play already? You can't create a "law" with this attributes. I don't think there's an easy way to solve this.


Writing big texts in English is not easy... Could we just all write in German? Would be much easier. Well, at least for me.

[malokin]

Malokin, your "world view" doesn't work. There are not enough people in the ("rich") world who think: "I like the game and I donate some money."

Well, excuse me if i disagree, and think your "world view" is naive and doesnt work. But you do misunderstand me, I am not purposing that everything in society be "free" or supported by rich people or donations. That is silly. People who produce content should be free to sell that content HOWEVER they want. What they can't do is whine and complain after they sell it to someone because of what that person DID with their product.

Your point of view is even counterproductive for the small indie games. Many people, who could program a nice game, don't have the time for it. They need to do another job to live their normal life. Some people try to quit their job and live only with the money from the sales of their game. This doesn't work with too much piracy, because piracy hurts the developer, that's not debatable. The only thing arguable is how much it hurts.

What do you think happened to all the little factorio people on the coal planets when the solar panel factories were finally fully assembled? Those people had to change jobs, starve to death, or change the WAY they sell their products ie: adapt to the way reality works now, instead of desperately clinging to the way things USED TO work. I dont care if the electric car destroys the auto industry and millions lose their jobs, it sounds callous but all progress like this is sad but WORTH IT. The dev's decision to not release the source is unfortunate, they have proven that they are determined to sell the public candles and candlesticks, and while I only know a little about light bulbs, I assure you all, and you know its true, that the real Thomas Edisons (Humphrey Davyies if your a brit) of the world are going to come when the game is released, and they will release the source code publicly, obfuscation or not. If developers choose to fight the unstoppable new world of unlimited freedom for anything in the digital format, they will end up trapped, circling the drain, dieing in pain, screaming like the dinosaurs they have proven themselves to be.

Gonna have to hop over to the book shops before my next post and get more shitty metaphors.

[Nova]

But you do misunderstand me, I am not purposing that everything in society be "free" or supported by rich people or donations.

Yes, but you say this things about information and games, which doesn't change anything about my original statement.

People who produce content should be free to sell that content HOWEVER they want. What they can't do is whine and complain after they sell it to someone because of what that person DID with their product.

Many companies say, that you are not allowed to reverse engineer their products or publish them. Don't know about factorio, but I think it's roughly the same. All in all it's some kind of "moral standard" that you don't publish something like that. Also the people who want to publish it, don't care about this "terms of use". License agreements are mostly a waste of effort, because under 5% (maybe even under 1%) of people really read them.

adapt to the way reality works now

*sign*
You're right with technological progress, but there's a huge difference: You can (and must) sell cars. Nobody can build and distribute free cars in their spare time without a huge amount of excess money. Games are something else. You can program games in your spare time. It needs time and it's not too easy, but possible. For bigger or more advanced games you need more programing time. Either with longer development time (as example 2 years instead of 1) or with more time per day (Working 8 hours a day instead of 4).