Quality Gating is flawed

[BlueTemplar]

This is the case for most things in Factorio. Default settings are tailored for fist time players. Space Age on default settings is still tailored for players that don't have hundreds of hours under their belts (with some concerns about that for Gleba).
So what ?

Wasting time is a quite interesting topic BTW, because once your factory becomes large/complex enough, it can take quite a while for changes to propagate.
This is of course particularly noticeable in complex modpacks : After early game in pYanodon's Alien Life (and IIRC AngelBobs), I found myself relying quite often on pressing CAPS LOCK to run the game as fast as my hardware could and/or going AFK, so that I was sure that the change I made didn't screw up my whole factory.

Now, in SA, we even have this 'issue' in the vanilla game : for instance the Gleba fruit cycles, or interplanetary logistics.

[meganothing]

There is/was a player here on the forum who uses one science building for the whole game and mostly watches TV while the game plays itself in the background. He doesn't need any military tech because there is only traces of pollution, and I think he asked why it is even in the game. His argument is similar to yours, just taken to extremes . Factorio is filled with stuff you don't need to win.

Quality is another angle to optimize for people who play the game to optimize. Do I need the power armor in epic? Not really. Do I want one? For sure.

I once tried to create a blue science "factory" in the smallest possible area, while around me I had freed kilometers of landmass that I could have used to build such factories without any regard to space usage at all. And that had nothing to do with mega factories by the way.

You can play the (pre space) game with just one miner, one furnace, one assembler, one refinery and one chemical plant now that "set recipe" is a thing in vanilla. But then you trade time for parallelity. The difference is he watches the game doing nothing (or not playing the game) while for me there are so many things to do that by the time you come around looking at some planet again it's filled the buffer chests with science packs. At the moment I'm running out of research to do because the production speed is so trivial for the other planets.

Lets try saying it differently: The game is too easy that by the time you have the time to worry about quality modules you have basically won the game. I didn't even get the urge to optimize any of the planets because something was too slow and needed to be scaled up in unexpected ways.

On Nauvis you start with a little iron and copper. Then you need more iron, then more steel then more circuit boards then massively more copper for the processing units and so on. There is a progression there where you need to expand and you have choices. Build more yellow belts or upgrade to red? Use speed modules or build more assemblers? Change grey to blue to yellow assemblers? Somehow I at least didn't see need the need to scale something up in space and asked myself: Should I build twice the factory or use a high quality electromagnetic plant? With the problem being more the former, no need to scale up.

Call it a lack of incentive to use quality.

You say it yourself: You have a problem with the difficulty of the game which is not geared to veteran players. Just like experienced RPG players who play an RPG without ever using a potion because it too easy. Or someone who thinks the goal in Factorio 1.0 is starting the rocket and wonders why there is a spidertron and endless techs in the game. Or players who wonder why there are barrels in the game when fluid wagons are so much easier to use without any real drawbacks. It is a sandbox, what you do and what goals you have is up to you.

Wube actually can't make Quality necessary in any meaningful way since they promised to some change-averse players that Quality will be optional. So it will always only be something to play around with if you are in the mood for it (just like the barrels) or because you need the boni for some specific part of a mega-factory.

[BlueTemplar]

Barrels are a funny example, because they are a much more core tech than trains (and especially than fluid wagons), and in particular are what you would use (with car) if you wanted to rush oil derivatives (like weapons and conbots).

[meganothing]

Barrels are a funny example, because they are a much more core tech than trains (and especially than fluid wagons), and in particular are what you would use (with car) if you wanted to rush oil derivatives (like weapons and conbots).

What does "core tech" mean except to say it is easily available? Which means nothing if most(?) people ignore to use it because easier methods are not far behind. None of my factorio-playing friends seem to have ever used barrels and I have seen posts here in the forum where players have said they don't use barrels. Because once you got trains the fluid wagon is an easy upgrade. And before trains pipes are (again) much much easier to use than barrel-filled belts. Obviously they (and I) also never thought of using barrels to rush oil to outposts. Which is a good idea, no question.

[BlueTemplar]

It means that you need the tech unlocking barrels as a pre-requisite to pumpjacks (and later, blue science).
While railway is only a pre-requisite to purple science.
While fluid wagon (and train stop + signals) are dead ends (and relatively expensive too).

P.S.: To be fair, Car => Tank => Uranium ammo is a dead-end too.

[bombcar]

Quality actually feels quite nice so far for me - I can dabble in it and get some serious rewards (quality even to uncommon and rare of certain things is really nice - armor and equipment, spacecraft components (not platform!), accumulators and solar panels, power poles).

Legendary after “endgame” offers a new way of megabasing “up” - before the only option at all was beacons.

Would I like legendary Mk3 right after hitting Fulgora? Who wouldn’t? But rare is quite nice.

[mrvn]

There is/was a player here on the forum who uses one science building for the whole game and mostly watches TV while the game plays itself in the background. He doesn't need any military tech because there is only traces of pollution, and I think he asked why it is even in the game. His argument is similar to yours, just taken to extremes . Factorio is filled with stuff you don't need to win.

Quality is another angle to optimize for people who play the game to optimize. Do I need the power armor in epic? Not really. Do I want one? For sure.

I once tried to create a blue science "factory" in the smallest possible area, while around me I had freed kilometers of landmass that I could have used to build such factories without any regard to space usage at all. And that had nothing to do with mega factories by the way.

You can play the (pre space) game with just one miner, one furnace, one assembler, one refinery and one chemical plant now that "set recipe" is a thing in vanilla. But then you trade time for parallelity. The difference is he watches the game doing nothing (or not playing the game) while for me there are so many things to do that by the time you come around looking at some planet again it's filled the buffer chests with science packs. At the moment I'm running out of research to do because the production speed is so trivial for the other planets.

Lets try saying it differently: The game is too easy that by the time you have the time to worry about quality modules you have basically won the game. I didn't even get the urge to optimize any of the planets because something was too slow and needed to be scaled up in unexpected ways.

On Nauvis you start with a little iron and copper. Then you need more iron, then more steel then more circuit boards then massively more copper for the processing units and so on. There is a progression there where you need to expand and you have choices. Build more yellow belts or upgrade to red? Use speed modules or build more assemblers? Change grey to blue to yellow assemblers? Somehow I at least didn't see need the need to scale something up in space and asked myself: Should I build twice the factory or use a high quality electromagnetic plant? With the problem being more the former, no need to scale up.

Call it a lack of incentive to use quality.

You say it yourself: You have a problem with the difficulty of the game which is not geared to veteran players. Just like experienced RPG players who play an RPG without ever using a potion because it too easy. Or someone who thinks the goal in Factorio 1.0 is starting the rocket and wonders why there is a spidertron and endless techs in the game. Or players who wonder why there are barrels in the game when fluid wagons are so much easier to use without any real drawbacks. It is a sandbox, what you do and what goals you have is up to you.

Wube actually can't make Quality necessary in any meaningful way since they promised to some change-averse players that Quality will be optional. So it will always only be something to play around with if you are in the mood for it (just like the barrels) or because you need the boni for some specific part of a mega-factory.

Still not getting it across quite right: The game isn't too easy. At a minimum Gleba is a real head scratcher. It's more that if you just figure out the minimum you need to produce the science packs then you are done. For example:

mini-gleba.png (1.58 MiB) Viewed 949 times

That factory produce 0.75 science packs per second. That's the same speed as the 5/6/5/12/14/7 blue assemblers for red/green/grey/blue/yellow/lilac science packs produce their science packs and plenty of speed unless you are doing mega factory. There is no real incentive to build a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... biochamber to produce science packs for me. I had to add extra circuit wires to have the factory stop when the provider chest holds 8000 science packs or the egg would hatch inside the biochamber when the provider chest is full. The problem is how to make it go slower or pause and not how to scale it up, how to prevent any backlog so nothing spoils. Quite the reversal to Nauvis.

Note: The tree farms are circuit controlled to produce fruit and jelly just a tick faster than they get consumed so everything is always freshest and only minimal excess is thrown away. They too run at a fraction of their max speed so no need for a second Agricultural Tower or artifical soil. Maybe if I produce the rocket locally I would use all it's produce but here I try without.

[h.q.droid]

Still not getting it across quite right: The game isn't too easy. At a minimum Gleba is a real head scratcher. It's more that if you just figure out the minimum you need to produce the science packs then you are done. For example:

mini-gleba.png

That factory produce 0.75 science packs per second. That's the same speed as the 5/6/5/12/14/7 blue assemblers for red/green/grey/blue/yellow/lilac science packs produce their science packs and plenty of speed unless you are doing mega factory. There is no real incentive to build a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... biochamber to produce science packs for me. I had to add extra circuit wires to have the factory stop when the provider chest holds 8000 science packs or the egg would hatch inside the biochamber when the provider chest is full. The problem is how to make it go slower or pause and not how to scale it up, how to prevent any backlog so nothing spoils. Quite the reversal to Nauvis.

Note: The tree farms are circuit controlled to produce fruit and jelly just a tick faster than they get consumed so everything is always freshest and only minimal excess is thrown away. They too run at a fraction of their max speed so no need for a second Agricultural Tower or artifical soil. Maybe if I produce the rocket locally I would use all it's produce but here I try without.

Arguably the depicted playstyle is more amenable to quality, considering how few stuff the factory needs. Just insert normal quality modules when making machines and you'll end up with uncommon / rare stuff running marginally faster than the basic setup with little effort. And at this scale save-load reroll is realistic enough that I made a rare mech armor from a similar setup.

[mrvn]

Still not getting it across quite right: The game isn't too easy. At a minimum Gleba is a real head scratcher. It's more that if you just figure out the minimum you need to produce the science packs then you are done. For example:

mini-gleba.png

That factory produce 0.75 science packs per second. That's the same speed as the 5/6/5/12/14/7 blue assemblers for red/green/grey/blue/yellow/lilac science packs produce their science packs and plenty of speed unless you are doing mega factory. There is no real incentive to build a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... biochamber to produce science packs for me. I had to add extra circuit wires to have the factory stop when the provider chest holds 8000 science packs or the egg would hatch inside the biochamber when the provider chest is full. The problem is how to make it go slower or pause and not how to scale it up, how to prevent any backlog so nothing spoils. Quite the reversal to Nauvis.

Note: The tree farms are circuit controlled to produce fruit and jelly just a tick faster than they get consumed so everything is always freshest and only minimal excess is thrown away. They too run at a fraction of their max speed so no need for a second Agricultural Tower or artifical soil. Maybe if I produce the rocket locally I would use all it's produce but here I try without.

Arguably the depicted playstyle is more amenable to quality, considering how few stuff the factory needs. Just insert normal quality modules when making machines and you'll end up with uncommon / rare stuff running marginally faster than the basic setup with little effort. And at this scale save-load reroll is realistic enough that I made a rare mech armor from a similar setup.

Only for the last step though, producing the science packs. On every other step you would be left with uncommon items that nothing uses and everything would break down.

Things is that quality science pack simply give more science and the problem is the chest overflowing. 10% more output when the output is just spoiling isn't a plus.

Also I won't get 1000 uncommon science packs that are over 50% fresh and then it's a loss. The limitations of the rocket logistics (and quality logistics really) make this a none starter. Wouldn't it be nice to request "1000 science packs, quality=best" and it would send a mix of qualities using the best available (full stacks only).

[h.q.droid]

Only for the last step though, producing the science packs. On every other step you would be left with uncommon items that nothing uses and everything would break down.

Things is that quality science pack simply give more science and the problem is the chest overflowing. 10% more output when the output is just spoiling isn't a plus.

Also I won't get 1000 uncommon science packs that are over 50% fresh and then it's a loss. The limitations of the rocket logistics (and quality logistics really) make this a none starter. Wouldn't it be nice to request "1000 science packs, quality=best" and it would send a mix of qualities using the best available (full stacks only).

You misunderstood me. I mean you should have used quality when making your biolabs and stuff. You only need 5 so if you use up all the eggs obtained when exploring and defending for biolabs, you could very well be making eggs with a rare biolab. That's a strict improvement with little consequence.

[mrvn]

Only for the last step though, producing the science packs. On every other step you would be left with uncommon items that nothing uses and everything would break down.

Things is that quality science pack simply give more science and the problem is the chest overflowing. 10% more output when the output is just spoiling isn't a plus.

Also I won't get 1000 uncommon science packs that are over 50% fresh and then it's a loss. The limitations of the rocket logistics (and quality logistics really) make this a none starter. Wouldn't it be nice to request "1000 science packs, quality=best" and it would send a mix of qualities using the best available (full stacks only).

You misunderstood me. I mean you should have used quality when making your biolabs and stuff. You only need 5 so if you use up all the eggs obtained when exploring and defending for biolabs, you could very well be making eggs with a rare biolab. That's a strict improvement with little consequence.

And that would produce science packs 50% faster or something so the chest is full that much sooner. Same as there being no incentive to build 2 biochambers for science production there is no incentive to make the first one faster.

I think you are all missing my point: What is the incentive to have better products or faster machines when I already have to throttle the first basic machine because it's too fast?

Maybe the recipe should be 10+ time slower so one wants to build more than one biochanmber. So that adding modules has benefits, adding beacons becomes useful. So that having a quality biochamber has benefits.

[meganothing]

And that would produce science packs 50% faster or something so the chest is full that much sooner. Same as there being no incentive to build 2 biochambers for science production there is no incentive to make the first one faster.

I think you are all missing my point: What is the incentive to have better products or faster machines when I already have to throttle the first basic machine because it's too fast?

Maybe the recipe should be 10+ time slower so one wants to build more than one biochanmber. So that adding modules has benefits, adding beacons becomes useful. So that having a quality biochamber has benefits.

Let's agree that Gleba is special. No other planet says "Endless resources that you don't want" as good as this planet. I can see quality as another way to reach other ratios than the 0.75 but if you just want to play your next Factorio the same as the current Factorio (I would get bored, you might feel different) then naturally 0.75 will always be what you build and what will suffice. Unless you play with mods, then suddenly some ratio or everything could be different.

Essentially I will think 5 times before using any quality on gleba, it just isn't the planet for that. Though again I can't help mentioning how quality laser/gun/whatever turrets and quality armor may have their use even on gleba

[Tinyboss]

I think you are all missing my point: What is the incentive to have better products or faster machines when I already have to throttle the first basic machine because it's too fast?

Okay, if you've had to say "y'all are missing my point" so many times, it could just be that people disagree.

You don't need quality to win the game. That's fine. A huge part of Factorio has always been doing really cool things, or at ridiculous scales, that are in no way required for reaching the standard win condition. And you absolutely will be incentivized to use quality if you want to dabble in that kind of gameplay.

If everything in the game is needed to reach the basic win condition, then there's not going to be much to do afterward. I know I wouldn't like that.

[mrvn]

I think you are all missing my point: What is the incentive to have better products or faster machines when I already have to throttle the first basic machine because it's too fast?

Okay, if you've had to say "y'all are missing my point" so many times, it could just be that people disagree.

You don't need quality to win the game. That's fine. A huge part of Factorio has always been doing really cool things, or at ridiculous scales, that are in no way required for reaching the standard win condition. And you absolutely will be incentivized to use quality if you want to dabble in that kind of gameplay.

If everything in the game is needed to reach the basic win condition, then there's not going to be much to do afterward. I know I wouldn't like that.

That kind of gameplay is fine. But that is past the point where reaching the edge of the system and researching any tech is still a problem. As such I don't see the quality being "gated" as such a problem. Just build the little started factory on each planet, research quality to it's end and then go build the mega factory. That is how the game works at the beginning too. You need to do some research to get better belts, find new resources and build some production to get bulk inserters, and so on. You aren't given all techs from the start.

What I objected to is a claim that making the last quality levels reachable earlier in the game would be oh so useful for getting to the later parts of the game. Quality imho isn't that useful, if at all, earlier in the game.

[eloepp]

I don't see the issue as there are 5 tiers. If it was just one tier, I think it'd be a little too late.

getting the final tiers later in the game gives you something to look forward to and potentially work on.

Just pretend the last one or two tiers aren't there... You can still go up to 3.

Question, if they make 1-5 available right away, then add a new 6/7 tiers for end game will you complain about that?

The fun thing about Factorio is that there is a late/post game, and a lot of people continue to play and recreate/improve their designs/blueprints. Yes, I realize I will have to redo a lot, but I don't HAVE to, it's just an option available later in the game. That is the great part of Factorio, much of it is optional. In Vanilla you never even had to use trains or bots to launch a rocket. You could play the game and not use so many features and do "everything" still.

One more question - what is the point of 5 tiers of quality if they are all unlocked at once? Nobody seriously trying to make quality products is going to settle with lower quality, they are going to create a design to make force legendary quality. You want to skip to the end and avoid everything in the middle.h

This is just a classic case of people having more options and still being unhappy...because there are more options. They could have just made one tier of quality available early and this topic wouldn't exist.

[Lighthouse]

There are feelings involved. It's not about proving a point.

Legendary Quality seems very attractive and people want to have it earlier. Me too.

In real life some people find diamonds very attractive and I think "Why? Just wear glass shards - you don't 'need' diamonds!"

Maybe those who say "It's a late/post-game content for people who want optimize even after beating the game": How about having trains become only available way after Aquilo just the same? Yes, you could beat the game without bots and trains. One can war glass shards instead of diamonds. One can live with Q4 all the way.

Sun would shine so much brighter when one has them. Days are so bleak when they are withheld from one's reach. Trains. Q5. Diamonds.

[Tinyboss]

Legendary Quality seems very attractive and people want to have it earlier. Me too.
[...]
Sun would shine so much brighter when one has them. Days are so bleak when they are withheld from one's reach. Trains. Q5. Diamonds.

I understand your argument, and you've explained it very well! But it's precisely these flashy, desirable items that should be near the end, IMO. Otherwise the rewards at the end can feel disappointing.

And I wouldn't put trains with the other two! Legendary items, like diamonds, are a luxury with little practical significance compared to not having them. Trains are nothing like that at all.

[nzer]

How about having trains become only available way after Aquilo just the same? Yes, you could beat the game without bots and trains. One can war glass shards instead of diamonds. One can live with Q4 all the way.

Why not unlock elevated rails right when trains are unlocked? Why not have all the worker robot speed upgrades in blue science? Why not unlock bots in red? Why not unlock foundries and EM plants on Nauvis?

Because it's a reward for progressing, and it's balanced around being unlocked when it is. "But I really really want it" is not a compelling argument for unlocking something earlier.

[Khazul]

You don't need quality to play the game at all. In fact I don't recommend touching that stuff for your first game at all. It's purely a post win thing for people that want to attempt the scattered planet. I'm actually underwhelmed by it overall. The most use I've got out of quality so far is better accumulators on Fulgora because it saves space. And even those I just enjoyed getting them as a side product of building the science packs. No active hunt for them. I see it more as a status thing to have legendary stuff. So having it end game / post win doesn't feel bad to me.

Better armor? I hunted a few aliens on Nauvis at the start of the game, a handfull of nests on Gleba and one worm on Vulkanus. Only reason I even have armor is for the roboports.

Better turrets? Some more reach would be nice I though. But it's not like turrets on planets get any use if you watch your pollution cloud. And in space the asteroids come to you and it's just quantity over quality. You don't even use red ammo or explosive rockets.

Larger chest? Faster Assemblers? Just build more.

Better miners? I had to work hard to get the "resource patch exhausted" achievement.

More arms on the collector? Not really an issue. I get more asteroid chunks than I can use while in system. It's only the scattered planet where you run out of resources.

Now there is one thing I totally forgot to go for so far: Qluality productivity modules. Going from 10% or 25% per module is a huge step. Putting those in your rocket silo and biolabs would be a big increase in productivity. Grinding those might actually save resources in the end. Next game I play I will do quality just on green/red/blue circuit boards and those modules till I have enough for all biolabs and silos.

What do you really want to have better quality that you would use and not just show off?

I wasn't hugely wowed by quality either until I started making high quality production machines and inserters and then discovered the impact very fast machines make on circuit driven dynamic recipe builds allowing for some very compact fast builds despite time-sharing recipes.

The modules is an obvious first thing to do and for a some time was the only active quality I was pursuing (ie making stuff specifically to upcycle instead of just passively stick some quality modules in to a mall type setup). Pretty much everything I did with quality was about components for making modules. Then starting using the passively produced thrusters, collectors. I never even considered sticking quality on inserts and production machine until an accident in a creative world where I accidently put down some legendary machines, beacons and inserters and pumps because legendary was still switched on and seeing how fast it was changed everything. Now its all all about actively getting supplies of everything needed for a legendary mall.

It also cuts down hugely on the number of machines needed and therefore the number of quality modules needed, so it kind of pays for itself to some extent that way too.

[Stargateur]

I understand your argument, and you've explained it very well! But it's precisely these flashy, desirable items that should be near the end, IMO. Otherwise the rewards at the end can feel disappointing.

And I wouldn't put trains with the other two! Legendary items, like diamonds, are a luxury with little practical significance compared to not having them. Trains are nothing like that at all.

You talk like legendary stuff come free once you get the research, you pay for legendary, it's very costly and hard to do. The tech is not really a reward like a productivity bonus. It's just "you can maybe get legendary thing now" that not really a reward.

I could resume all your post as "NO FUN ALLOWED", what so hard to understand that it's more fun ? It's a game omg