Thoughts on 0.13 Terrain Generation

[Bizz Keryear]

I opened about a dozen new games just to validate that and seriously, the new terrain looks like splattered paint. Whatever biomes they put up - they are TINY. Water mini-lakes that make working around them a pain, but are not large enough to be meaningfull.

BIG step backward.

Can be fixed mine rocks and turn them into land fill

I also think the new small biomes are supposed to make the map less uniform, and more lively. Some will like it some hate it. The mini lakes are nice ... it means water nearby, and if need be can be filled up.

[TerraFirma]

Actually, I like the new terrain generation. It looks, to me, more realistic than the otherwise bland treatment of biomes we had before. It looks wilder. ie. more realistic.

Deserts don't tend to alternate with grasslands every 100 feet irl

Not if we're talking, like, the Sahara, no, but irl biomes don't typically manifest with clear boundaries between one and the next, and variance in soil qualities should be expected.

[MrGrim]

Actually, I like the new terrain generation. It looks, to me, more realistic than the otherwise bland treatment of biomes we had before. It looks wilder. ie. more realistic.

Deserts don't tend to alternate with grasslands every 100 feet irl

Not if we're talking, like, the Sahara, no, but irl biomes don't typically manifest with clear boundaries between one and the next, and variance in soil qualities should be expected.

There's a difference between "variance in soil qualities" and short distance alternating between desert and forest. E.g.: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/963 ... 00OISA.jpg

I'd have no problems with local variance inside a biome. That's already achieved to some degree with decorations like grass, but more wouldn't hurt. The problem here is wild swings from one biome to the next in very short distances.

Really, though, the fix would still leave the "high segmentation" functioning so you can have what you want. I think we'd just like "low segmentation" to also work so we can have more consistency in the maps.

[Bizz Keryear]

Actually there is a (very work intensive) solution to this ... first off using most of 0.12 generation, but add in the ponds of 0.13.
Then also add in various variations of each biome tiles. That way you don't get small spots of forest in the desert but plenty of variation that makes it more life like, though, that means to make tons of new graphics that do nothing than look pretty.

[Qon]

Actually there is a (very work intensive) solution to this ... first off using most of 0.12 generation, but add in the ponds of 0.13.

The ponds in 0.13 is the worst part of the 0.13 generator and definitly a bug. If you like it use high segmentation. Let us who use low segmentation get low water segmentation.

[Bizz Keryear]

Actually there is a (very work intensive) solution to this ... first off using most of 0.12 generation, but add in the ponds of 0.13.

The ponds in 0.13 is the worst part of the 0.13 generator and definitly a bug. If you like it use high segmentation. Let us who use low segmentation get low water segmentation.

No, they aren't ... they also added in landfill and mineable rocks (which give exactly enough for one landfill). If you don't like or need the pond ... Fill. It. Up! it is better than having need for water deep in map and pipe it all over.

[Qon]

Actually there is a (very work intensive) solution to this ... first off using most of 0.12 generation, but add in the ponds of 0.13.

The ponds in 0.13 is the worst part of the 0.13 generator and definitly a bug. If you like it use high segmentation. Let us who use low segmentation get low water segmentation.

No, they aren't ... they also added in landfill and mineable rocks (which give exactly enough for one landfill). If you don't like or need the pond ... Fill. It. Up! it is better than having need for water deep in map and pipe it all over.

I don't see what landfill or minable stone rocks have to do with bugged terrain generation. High segmentation was available in 0.12 for those that like water all over the place. This thread is about the missing low segmentation option.

[slapkey]

I seriously can't find any more stone on my map. I had 2 small patches in the area now walled in as my base which have been fully exhausted while I continue to search.
I started pushing south, then changed and have been heading east for...a really long time. Pushing through some pretty big biter bases with turrets and a personal roboport, then just leaving a few turrets and continuing to push through. Even started dropping radars at some points along the way.

Out of the entire explored and scanned area in the screenshot below, I have found one stone patch, the size of which you can see in roughly the center of the picture.


I wish there was a way I could "re-roll" the ore on my map at this point...

imgur.co m/FRSlCX4

[torham]

I seriously can't find any more stone on my map. I had 2 small patches in the area now walled in as my base which have been fully exhausted while I continue to search.
I started pushing south, then changed and have been heading east for...a really long time. Pushing through some pretty big biter bases with turrets and a personal roboport, then just leaving a few turrets and continuing to push through. Even started dropping radars at some points along the way.

Out of the entire explored and scanned area in the screenshot below, I have found one stone patch, the size of which you can see in roughly the center of the picture.


I wish there was a way I could "re-roll" the ore on my map at this point...

imgur.co m/FRSlCX4

I had the same problem. I went for over 10 hours without a single square of stone resource. I was solely surviving on mining the big boulders around. This pretty much prevents me from building roads, trains and walls...oh and landfills.

Also to chime in, I don't really favor the messy biome generation. sand patches everwhere, it looks .... untidy. Artificially so.

[brunzenstein]

I seriously can't find any more stone on my map. I had 2 small patches in the area now walled in as my base which have been fully exhausted while I continue to search.
I started pushing south, then changed and have been heading east for...a really long time. Pushing through some pretty big biter bases with turrets and a personal roboport, then just leaving a few turrets and continuing to push through. Even started dropping radars at some points along the way.

Out of the entire explored and scanned area in the screenshot below, I have found one stone patch, the size of which you can see in roughly the center of the picture.


I wish there was a way I could "re-roll" the ore on my map at this point...

imgur.co m/FRSlCX4

I had the same problem. I went for over 10 hours without a single square of stone resource. I was solely surviving on mining the big boulders around. This pretty much prevents me from building roads, trains and walls...oh and landfills.

Also to chime in, I don't really favor the messy biome generation. sand patches everwhere, it looks .... untidy. Artificially so.

I solved this problem, thought temporarily, by deconstructing rocks with a pickax - that gives some stone for the very moment.

[Bizz Keryear]

Actually there is a (very work intensive) solution to this ... first off using most of 0.12 generation, but add in the ponds of 0.13.

The ponds in 0.13 is the worst part of the 0.13 generator and definitly a bug. If you like it use high segmentation. Let us who use low segmentation get low water segmentation.

No, they aren't ... they also added in landfill and mineable rocks (which give exactly enough for one landfill). If you don't like or need the pond ... Fill. It. Up! it is better than having need for water deep in map and pipe it all over.

I don't see what landfill or minable stone rocks have to do with bugged terrain generation. High segmentation was available in 0.12 for those that like water all over the place. This thread is about the missing low segmentation option.

IU was saying feature not bug (why I think so) though terrain generation has changed again ... so it might have been a bug

[angmori]

I really don't get the people saying "well you can landfill all those small ponds, so it's not a problem"
Hell yes it's a problem. I don't wanna spend a ton of time running around landfilling all over the place just because map generation is, in fact, broken.

And it doesn't really matter if you don't think it's a problem to play with lots of small ponds. I, and others, do. At least I have enough empathy to realise that not all people wanna play the same style of maps as I do, and so if this situation was reversed, I'd have sympathy with them and agree that yes, this is a pretty major issue.

[slapkey]

I don't know how to measure distance easily, but I've pushed several minutes of running below my southmost base at 5-exoskeleton speed, around massive biter bases, and when I come across an oil patch sometimes it has a bunch of patches, sometimes a few, but always with only 50-60% yield. Unfortunately I don't think this map is tenable for going for a bigger base without cheating, even with Speed 3 beacons on all my pumpjacks.

[tehroach]

I don't think you can call the 0.13.x map generator broken a such, the OP's pic is just showing the inconsistencies between 12 and 13.
For me the fact that 13 even loads saves from 12 is amazing, because every other alpha game that I have played with persistant randgen maps, required a new game.

IMO I like the smaller tighter spaces, because it really makes me think, "How am I going to do this here?" and not just "What was the code for that blueprint again?"

but I can see the reasons that alot of people hate it because it nerfs the "Main Bus" style factory considerably

[MrGrim]

I don't think you can call the 0.13.x map generator broken a such, the OP's pic is just showing the inconsistencies between 12 and 13.
For me the fact that 13 even loads saves from 12 is amazing, because every other alpha game that I have played with persistant randgen maps, required a new game.

IMO I like the smaller tighter spaces, because it really makes me think, "How am I going to do this here?" and not just "What was the code for that blueprint again?"

but I can see the reasons that alot of people hate it because it nerfs the "Main Bus" style factory considerably

My beef w/ the generation starts way before factory design aspects come into play. It's just kinda ugly. I spend many, many hours in each map I play, and I would like it to look like a world and not a thinly veiled noise generator. With 0.13 it's just noise.. a sand tile here, a grass tile there.. Many people seem to think the terrain segmentation option is just not working as intended. If that's the case then hopefully it won't be much work to fix it.

*EDIT*: FWIW the seams, as I mentioned in the post, I could live with. They're understandable new noise generator routine and all when uncovering new chunks. There's no reason to expect the pattern of water vs land to be retained.

I'm OCD enough I'd actually run around with tens of thousands of landfills and round them out.

[torham]

.. Many people seem to think the terrain segmentation option is just not working as intended.

I think this is the case. Generate maps on very low and very high segmentation. I couldn't find a difference.

[SQLek]

Did anybody noticed enemy expansion kinda higher?

Lots of forest in map generation or lakes can be actually good thing.

One of my maps turned to be similar to 0.12. No intrusive lakes and desert. Just after military I i noticed i got two nests, one two chunks from mining drills and second one and half from boilers. When i got military II, pack of bitters had 20 units and were attacking from tree different directories. Many turrets was eaten and i had rough time.

But in "broken" word gen:
- forest and lakes gives pollution dumping
- lakes allow easier fortification
- you will not get enemy re-population in forest, sometimes you will see alone small/medium worm but not spawners.
- high fragmentation gives some benefits from all directions.

In nutshell: in broken word gen real war starts on stage science pack 3 and military 4. On sensible maps real war starts on transient from science packs 1 to 2.

In my opinion, with current mechanics, word gen is quite good as a default and non moded. It shoud be good enough for everybody but it will also never be exelent in any playstyle. Want something premium get RSO.

PS I'm not native english speaker.

[Qon]

In my opinion, with current mechanics, word gen is quite good as a default and non moded. It shoud be good enough for everybody but it will also never be exelent in any playstyle. Want something premium get RSO.

RSO modifies resources, not terrain. At least in Factorio0.12.
It's not quite good at all of you try to set your options to the opposite of what it gives you, and it just ignores your settings. Yes, some people like the world gen as it is. Doesn't matter, because those people like high segmentation. People liking it doesn't show that it's ok, just that it is bugged in a way that doesn't affect your playstyle because it enforces your playstyle.

[SQLek]

High fragmentation: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720170401
- small/medium lakes in all map, not only in starting zone.
- biome change also frequent

Low fragmentation: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720170319
- except small lakes in starting area everything else is desert/wasteland - one big biome

Low fragmentation: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720170339
- also big biomes

No starting area: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720184505
- kinda expected that

Soo let experiment so more... i want big land, rare resources that are rich, and high train usability.
And it worked http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720184563
Ooops presets don't get saved.

So second try...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720191149
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =720191121

Tested on 0.13.6 steam linux x64.
Maybe it works for some in wacky/derpy way, but i was able to get what i want with less problems than in 0.12. I thing i start to like new world gen.

[tehroach]

Maybe it works for some in wacky/derpy way, but i was able to get what i want with less problems than in 0.12. I thing i start to like new world gen.

I have found in Factorio since 0.9.x that I have had to restart maps several times before I found one that I liked and started to play, so 0.13.x hasn't been much different for me.

I think that one of the big problems for randomgen, but also a big bonus for players in Factorio is the fact that you can migrate maps from previous versions very easily.