No Marathon mode in 2.0 confirmed?

[rhynex]

sorry for ranting and a little drifting away.

first of all, I also am disappointed in removal of expensive mode, but because of another reason which I will explain below. I always play with expensive mode enabled. I cannot stand vanilla recipes, they are way too boring and simple in my opinion. at least expensive mode was a start in right direction for a challenge, something different that does not necessarily overhaul entire recipe system like other mods do. it is not enough but a good start in my opinion. I understand the reason behind decision of devs but not accept/approve it. main reason is removal of something that already exists. so the supposedly called "upgrade" becomes downgrade actually, for me.

what concerns me about devs' decision is to push such details to modders now. if you want a feature "removed" then modders must bring it back, no option, flag etc. so in expansion I must wait for a modder until someone "fixes" it for me or maybe no one will do it because there is a huge majority of factorio players that will accept whatever devs decide, they simply do not care. this gives extra work for people like me who mods the game for themselves to enjoy it. I am saying this in regards to expensive mode but there are many other changes done in DLC (and 2.0) that will require modding to revert or alter what was changed as well. some of the changes are coming to 2.0 which is the most disappointing part. so it is not "free" actually, it will come with a "task" to modders (or players) of modding to revert all the stuff that 2.0 brings, including expensive mode.

to people who claim we can play marathon on our computers, it is not about what we can do or not. we (people who like marathon mode) will continue playing it on 1.1 of course (I definitely will do, no 2.0 for me, I do not have time to figure out what is broken and then fix in 2.0) but you (others) are not aware what is going on because it does not affect you. something we have is taken from us and we have to fight back (or do something on our own) to bring it back. yes, whole post for 10 or something recipes, I know, but it is just one example. I would not go into fluid changes and 250+/- binary system here. recently kovarex posted on reddit (not in official forums, not sure why) that maps without enemies is gone too, spawners will always spawn that will not spawn biters, even if we want to play "without enemies". so another mod to be installed. there might be way bigger problems and some of them cannot be even fixed in 2.0 anymore perhaps (such as fluids). I hope you get where it is going, there are so many examples and probably a lot hidden ones that someone has to dig deeper. I bet even devs do not have full list due to many changes.

I hate this kind of hidden employment for a company, modders become free developers/testers. instead of playing the game I pay full price, I have to spend time on fixing the game with mods, or look for a mod that does what former version did. then of course a map of mine will have 40+ mods enabled, some of them conflicting with each other because no simple mod is simple. if something breaks, then good luck to figure out why something does not work as intended. it becomes a job/chore, not a game for me. someone has to remind me what am I paying for.

solution is simple, which I have chosen it long time ago. expansion is not for me. it definitely seems exciting for some people, I respect that. but that is quite opposite for some people (like me, maybe Panzerknacker or some others). I am not paying full price for a game that does not replace what is removed, and even breaks many other things. most games do not offer free updates even so I respect Wube for that decision but as I explained above, it is not "free" like you think. I simply take it as is: "for factorio there is no free update, there is just sequel"

there is "optional" ™ by Wube, next to "free" ™ by Wube

[aka13]

But kovarex is thinking about open sourcing Factorio so that would solve also that problem.

source?

He said it on the lan. Not sure if he repeated it on the interview he did as well.

instead of playing the game I pay full price,

All major releases are available forever without any drm. You paid for a game in some condition, you can keep it in the same condition.
Nobody is forcing you to play the new versions of the game.

[rhynex]

instead of playing the game I pay full price,

All major releases are available forever without any drm. You paid for a game in some condition, you can keep it in the same condition.
Nobody is forcing you to play the new versions of the game.

I have not mentioned anything about DRM, dude. not sure what you are talking about.

[NineNine]

sorry for ranting and a little drifting away....

I've read this word salad twice, and I still have no idea what you're talking about.

[aka13]

I have not mentioned anything about DRM, dude. not sure what you are talking about.

Just download whichever version you feel is good and play it, nobody is taking that, thats what I am on about. I don't get it why future versions of a game have to be fully backwards-compatible, what's good about it? 1.1 is feature-complete, 2.0 is a free engine update coming with the dlc. You don't want that? Don't play it.

[rhynex]

sorry for ranting and a little drifting away....

I've read this word salad twice, and I still have no idea what you're talking about.

summary is, if someone wants to play marathon with 2.0 or in expansion then that someone has to mod the game or find someone who is capable of modding the game, that is what devs want people to do. that is what I said and explained my opinion on this.

thanks for calling it a salad, for dinner I will have salad then.

[rhynex]

... we (people who like marathon mode) will continue playing it on 1.1 of course (I definitely will do, ...

Just download whichever version you feel is good and play it, nobody is taking that, thats what I am on about. I don't get it why future versions of a game have to be fully backwards-compatible, what's good about it? 1.1 is feature-complete, 2.0 is a free engine update coming with the dlc. You don't want that? Don't play it.

that is what I literally wrote, lol. so? what is your fuss about DRM?
I just mentioned my disappointment and opinions on future of game but it is alright if you did not read it. it definitely was not worth your time. have fun with expansion.

[Tertius]

to people who claim we can play marathon on our computers, it is not about what we can do or not. we (people who like marathon mode) will continue playing it on 1.1 of course (I definitely will do, no 2.0 for me, I do not have time to figure out what is broken and then fix in 2.0) but you (others) are not aware what is going on because it does not affect you. something we have is taken from us and we have to fight back (or do something on our own) to bring it back.

This something isn't taken away arbitrarily or to grief you. There is a reason for game changes. Changes are being developed to improve the game. It looks as if you perceive all changes as offensive meant to destroy your fun. But they're not designed to destroy your fun. Trust the developers, they're designed to improve your fun, so give them a chance and try the new game. Adapting to changes keeps you young. I try to go with every change and not stay in some old world that doesn't exist any more. Not only with Factorio but with everyday life as well. I'm a bit older than the usual gamer, but I'm trying to do the same stuff as people of every age, especially the younger ones. Keeps me young and makes me get new ideas, new experiences and new knowledge. And all this make me more happy and I feel younger.

From time to time I forget to stay up to date, but discussions such as these remind me I want to stay up to date. May be you remember how I voiced some hidden anger against fighting enemies in the last fff's. I realized I reject combat in Factorio as much as you're rejecting changes. So in my newest map, I started again fighting and doing combat in general. I found out I'm quite capable to combat (I failed fighting when I started Factorio years ago and tried to avoid fights ever since), for example the rockets are quite fun and quite elegant with hit&run tactics. In combination with an energy shield and the health buffer it provides, combat is far less tedious and grieving than I observed earlier. I said I plan to start Space Age with enemies disabled, but in the light of these experiences, I will definitely start Space Age with 100% vanilla settings, including enemies. That's the game the developers envisioned, and I feel this is how I should use it.

So I encourage you to give the game a chance as well and try the new changes. May be the new stuff is making you forget there was some expensive mode. Keep in mind, expensive mode doesn't really change the game - it just requires a bit more of everything. But the game is the same. Same mechanics, same tech, same items.

[Panzerknacker]

I will definitely start Space Age with 100% vanilla settings, including enemies. That's the game the developers envisioned, and I feel this is how I should use it.

So I encourage you to give the game a chance as well and try the new changes. May be the new stuff is making you forget there was some expensive mode. Keep in mind, expensive mode doesn't really change the game - it just requires a bit more of everything. But the game is the same. Same mechanics, same tech, same items.

Lets gooo! Good choice.

What the man is trying to say tho (i think), it's quite a big change to 'upgrade' to 2.0 but loose access to the higher difficulty settings of the game. I don't think something like that has happened yet in the history of gaming (not talking MMO's and stuff, this isn't an MMO by any means either). And yes it can be modded in but that still needs to happen first and comes with drawbacks compared to the original. I would rather see that 2.0 was going to be only a upgrade in every way, not also a downgrade.

I have to repeat that the difference between normal and expensive recipe is more than most people think. If you never seriously played Marathon you can't really say anything about it, trust me. Building optimized direct insertion setups with expensive recipes is a totally different level than on default mode, it really pushes the limit of what can be done with the available tools in the game. Also, when I rush to rocket on Default, biters are at around 0.40 evolution Factor, on Marathon that's almost 0.80. Getting zerged by Big biters instead of Medium. I use around 2.1M iron ore compared to 365K on default, that's almost SIX times more. So 'a bit more' is a bit of a understatement I think :p

[rhynex]

...

This something isn't taken away arbitrarily or to grief you. There is a reason for game changes. Changes are being developed to improve the game. It looks as if you perceive all changes as offensive meant to destroy your fun. But they're not designed to destroy your fun. Trust the developers, they're designed to improve your fun, so give them a chance and try the new game. Adapting to changes keeps you young. I try to go with every change and not stay in some old world that doesn't exist any more. Not only with Factorio but with everyday life as well. I'm a bit older than the usual gamer, but I'm trying to do the same stuff as people of every age, especially the younger ones. Keeps me young and makes me get new ideas, new experiences and new knowledge. And all this make me more happy and I feel younger.

From time to time I forget to stay up to date, but discussions such as these remind me I want to stay up to date. May be you remember how I voiced some hidden anger against fighting enemies in the last fff's. I realized I reject combat in Factorio as much as you're rejecting changes. So in my newest map, I started again fighting and doing combat in general. I found out I'm quite capable to combat (I failed fighting when I started Factorio years ago and tried to avoid fights ever since), for example the rockets are quite fun and quite elegant with hit&run tactics. In combination with an energy shield and the health buffer it provides, combat is far less tedious and grieving than I observed earlier. I said I plan to start Space Age with enemies disabled, but in the light of these experiences, I will definitely start Space Age with 100% vanilla settings, including enemies. That's the game the developers envisioned, and I feel this is how I should use it.

So I encourage you to give the game a chance as well and try the new changes. May be the new stuff is making you forget there was some expensive mode. Keep in mind, expensive mode doesn't really change the game - it just requires a bit more of everything. But the game is the same. Same mechanics, same tech, same items.

since you ask so nicely ... but no, I will not. first like then buy, never opposite order. I will only buy something I like, or I will not buy something first to force myself to like it. devs have made their decision, so did I.

I do not shy away from expansion because of 10 or so recipes, it is a bunch of things mentioned here and there, a pile of things. we only see the tip of iceberg, and maybe in two weeks we will learn more drastic changes coming up that people shout louder.

if you think the dev's envisioned game is so perfect then more than %90 of the mods from mod portal must be junk because those modders think opposite, they are created for a reason. everyone has their own taste. people even create mods to change mods these days, that is quite common actually. search for SE, you will find maybe tens of mods altering SE internals here and there. I would not be surprised if there are more than ten percent of mods that are not registered in mod portal. some of my mods are not there because they are too specific, some people might have similar mindset. all these overhaul mods created by modders already prove something, we needed variance of things, recipes, tools, enemies and such. expansion brings some, but also take some (example, the topic at hand). fortunately mods are free. just browse through the mods, try some most downloaded ones, you will realize why so many people use "utility" mods. since we have such a pool, why should we trust devs that force us to vanilla? nah, not my thing. for sure you go ahead and tell us how it is in vanilla 2.0 if you trust them so much. it is actually you who posted this: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=115559 a perfect game the devs have envisioned should not have those annoyances, don't you think? you will have more annoyances with 2.0/SA perhaps, who knows.

I did not follow whole topics on FFFs, it is too cluttered for me. but if you think something in game is not perfect (like combat you say), skip that part, enjoy what you like. install mods, or even develop mods and like your own game, not what others force you. unless you want to go full vanilla purist, try mods that catch your eyes. at one point you will realize what we have been missing from the actual game, how imperfect devs have envisioned stuff for us. you might have heard many things about mods going to valhalla (or whatever they call it), in recent FFFs you will see them mentioned, I think latest was the fluid direction visual thingy. that is a big proof that devs have not envisioned everything perfectly, no. after 2.0/SA new mods will come and prove this statement again and again, just wait.

in forums we should not challenge our decisions play what you like, how you like.

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expensive mode is fun, recipes barely fit regular patterns and some recipes (LDS) have quite layout issues you have to fix. I use some mods to make combat easier so I do not have biter issues in general but for sure it is a challenge. it is sad we will not see it in future. I have some mods affecting this but my 1k spm iron and oil usage is more than triple of vanilla 1k spm base. expansion and security of outposts are always fun, automation of those especially. until artillery it is always a risk to expand unless you wall everywhere. things go slowly, and I like it. power is an issue, safety is always an issue. it is fun actually.

thanks for your topic to bring it front, it is rare to see expensive mode mentioned anywhere

[braxbro]

sorry for ranting and a little drifting away.

first of all, I also am disappointed in removal of expensive mode, but because of another reason which I will explain below. I always play with expensive mode enabled. I cannot stand vanilla recipes, they are way too boring and simple in my opinion. at least expensive mode was a start in right direction for a challenge, something different that does not necessarily overhaul entire recipe system like other mods do. it is not enough but a good start in my opinion. I understand the reason behind decision of devs but not accept/approve it. main reason is removal of something that already exists. so the supposedly called "upgrade" becomes downgrade actually, for me.

what concerns me about devs' decision is to push such details to modders now. if you want a feature "removed" then modders must bring it back, no option, flag etc. so in expansion I must wait for a modder until someone "fixes" it for me or maybe no one will do it because there is a huge majority of factorio players that will accept whatever devs decide, they simply do not care. this gives extra work for people like me who mods the game for themselves to enjoy it. I am saying this in regards to expensive mode but there are many other changes done in DLC (and 2.0) that will require modding to revert or alter what was changed as well. some of the changes are coming to 2.0 which is the most disappointing part. so it is not "free" actually, it will come with a "task" to modders (or players) of modding to revert all the stuff that 2.0 brings, including expensive mode.

to people who claim we can play marathon on our computers, it is not about what we can do or not. we (people who like marathon mode) will continue playing it on 1.1 of course (I definitely will do, no 2.0 for me, I do not have time to figure out what is broken and then fix in 2.0) but you (others) are not aware what is going on because it does not affect you. something we have is taken from us and we have to fight back (or do something on our own) to bring it back. yes, whole post for 10 or something recipes, I know, but it is just one example. I would not go into fluid changes and 250+/- binary system here. recently kovarex posted on reddit (not in official forums, not sure why) that maps without enemies is gone too, spawners will always spawn that will not spawn biters, even if we want to play "without enemies". so another mod to be installed. there might be way bigger problems and some of them cannot be even fixed in 2.0 anymore perhaps (such as fluids). I hope you get where it is going, there are so many examples and probably a lot hidden ones that someone has to dig deeper. I bet even devs do not have full list due to many changes.

I hate this kind of hidden employment for a company, modders become free developers/testers. instead of playing the game I pay full price, I have to spend time on fixing the game with mods, or look for a mod that does what former version did. then of course a map of mine will have 40+ mods enabled, some of them conflicting with each other because no simple mod is simple. if something breaks, then good luck to figure out why something does not work as intended. it becomes a job/chore, not a game for me. someone has to remind me what am I paying for.

solution is simple, which I have chosen it long time ago. expansion is not for me. it definitely seems exciting for some people, I respect that. but that is quite opposite for some people (like me, maybe Panzerknacker or some others). I am not paying full price for a game that does not replace what is removed, and even breaks many other things. most games do not offer free updates even so I respect Wube for that decision but as I explained above, it is not "free" like you think. I simply take it as is: "for factorio there is no free update, there is just sequel"

there is "optional" ™ by Wube, next to "free" ™ by Wube

I’m sorry, but this just comes off as whiny. The original proposal to remove Expensive Mode in 1.2 (now 2.0) had many good reasons for it. For one, it simplifies recipe and technology prototypes by removing the Recipe/TechnologyData structure and the normal/expensive properties. It likely streamlined things behind the scenes a bit, CERTAINLY streamlines things for mod developers, and encourages a much more sensible and robust implementation of varying difficulties (that isn’t just limited to a binary yes/no expensive mode toggle) for those who seek to make one.

Sure, small ratio and recipe tweaks can phenomenally change the game. But that’s also a lot easier to do as a mod. (and, honestly, would probably be best as a mod released by the game’s developers… of which there are many)

I see no issue with Expensive Mode being pushed out to the purview of a mod. It’s actually even possible to bring it and the Marathon presets back with a mod fairly easily. Hell, if it’s just like, 10 recipes, that’s an afternoon of work after 2.0 fully releases. I might do it myself. Pipe changes needed to happen as fluid throughput became more important, and that’s an engine-level change that can’t be done by mods because Lua fluids are S L O W, to the point that they are not playable at all. If the devs didn’t fix fluids, then I would have used linked fluid boxes (new feature in 2.0!) to fix them myself, for example, by simply making all pipes fake, possibly with a similar limitation to the one the developers settled on in the end.

[rhynex]

...

I’m sorry, but this just comes off as whiny. The original proposal to remove Expensive Mode in 1.2 (now 2.0) had many good reasons for it. For one, it simplifies recipe and technology prototypes by removing the Recipe/TechnologyData structure and the normal/expensive properties. It likely streamlined things behind the scenes a bit, CERTAINLY streamlines things for mod developers, and encourages a much more sensible and robust implementation of varying difficulties (that isn’t just limited to a binary yes/no expensive mode toggle) for those who seek to make one.

Sure, small ratio and recipe tweaks can phenomenally change the game. But that’s also a lot easier to do as a mod. (and, honestly, would probably be best as a mod released by the game’s developers… of which there are many)

I see no issue with Expensive Mode being pushed out to the purview of a mod. It’s actually even possible to bring it and the Marathon presets back with a mod fairly easily. Hell, if it’s just like, 10 recipes, that’s an afternoon of work after 2.0 fully releases. I might do it myself. Pipe changes needed to happen as fluid throughput became more important, and that’s an engine-level change that can’t be done by mods because Lua fluids are S L O W, to the point that they are not playable at all. If the devs didn’t fix fluids, then I would have used linked fluid boxes (new feature in 2.0!) to fix them myself, for example, by simply making all pipes fake, possibly with a similar limitation to the one the developers settled on in the end.

no problem. I also understand the reason but the result is not satisfactory. I already did extract recipes when it was announced because I needed it: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Ugung-ExpensiveMode from my understanding at that time it was never confirmed that it would come up as a mod in future, I never got an answer in the topic viewtopic.php?f=6&t=104026 either. I do not know if it was declared somewhere, I am not good at digging devs' posts from here and there. right now expansion has 3 mods and none of them is expensive mode as mod, that is what I know. this means we do not have expensive mode as mod.

sure, stuff can be implemented without such a mod but then it is not expensive mode anymore, it is not different than Seablock, IR3 or Krastorio.

I doubt if it is easier for modders who want to support expensive mode (or the original idea). you cannot support something that does not exist, devs or someone has to create a mod and then other mods must give dependency to that mod and check if it is active or not. every modder have to introduce an option for that perhaps. some modders might do it automatically while others will present option because everyone is different. since it is not binary yes/no, now some modders might present 3 option like normal/expensive/very expensive. there is no consensus anymore and no one is wrong about this, removal of expensive mode is removal of rules to support. the implementation will not be easy due to this reason (I am not an expert modder either so if there is a simpler magical way then sure). I have no clue about fluid box stuff that comes with 2.0 or how it would affect implementation.

as I said, as far as I know there is no mod that is called "expensive mode", or announced somewhere. every attempt by modders will be pure isolated from each other unless a big community if formed for this. devs could organize it by enforcing it in recipes and etc but from what I see it is not happening. maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

Hell, if it’s just like, 10 recipes, that’s an afternoon of work after 2.0 fully releases

I bet you are talking about original recipes only, which I posted in the mod already. in 2.0 and SA we will not see expensive recipes, you do not know what devs think what a new foundry expensive recipe will be (or maybe I misunderstood). basically SA has no expensive recipe, so nothing to support, only old stuff.


edit: never mind, I changed my mind. work on your own to fix whatever you see broken or nothing if you think everything is perfect, ignore and move on. community does not care, so do not I.

[braxbro]

...

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no problem. I also understand the reason but the result is not satisfactory. I already did extract recipes when it was announced because I needed it: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Ugung-ExpensiveMode from my understanding at that time it was never confirmed that it would come up as a mod in future, I never got an answer in the topic viewtopic.php?f=6&t=104026 either. I do not know if it was declared somewhere, I am not good at digging devs' posts from here and there. right now expansion has 3 mods and none of them is expensive mode as mod, that is what I know. this means we do not have expensive mode as mod.

sure, stuff can be implemented without such a mod but then it is not expensive mode anymore, it is not different than Seablock, IR3 or Krastorio.

I doubt if it is easier for modders who want to support expensive mode (or the original idea). you cannot support something that does not exist, devs or someone has to create a mod and then other mods must give dependency to that mod and check if it is active or not. every modder have to introduce an option for that perhaps. some modders might do it automatically while others will present option because everyone is different. since it is not binary yes/no, now some modders might present 3 option like normal/expensive/very expensive. there is no consensus anymore and no one is wrong about this, removal of expensive mode is removal of rules to support. the implementation will not be easy due to this reason (I am not an expert modder either so if there is a simpler magical way then sure). I have no clue about fluid box stuff that comes with 2.0 or how it would affect implementation.

as I said, as far as I know there is no mod that is called "expensive mode", or announced somewhere. every attempt by modders will be pure isolated from each other unless a big community if formed for this. devs could organize it by enforcing it in recipes and etc but from what I see it is not happening. maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

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I bet you are talking about original recipes only, which I posted in the mod already. in 2.0 and SA we will not see expensive recipes, you do not know what devs think what a new foundry expensive recipe will be (or maybe I misunderstood). basically SA has no expensive recipe, so nothing to support, only old stuff.

There’s no mod announced as official. I would not be surprised if a developer or some widely known mod developer released a pseudo-official expensive mode mod. As to support for expensive mode in mods… unfortunately, part of the reason for cutting it was the extremely piecemeal support for the official system. Many mods just did not specify expensive mode recipes, or when they did, they were either incomplete or an afterthought.

An expensive mode mod can include support for other mods that do not support expensive mode normally, just like how tweak mods work. Furthermore, again, more than one difficulty can be supported by hidden recipes/hidden techs or startup settings. I suspect that, if anything, forcing expensive mode to be reintroduced as a mod may mean that more mods end up supported by a mod’s system than the original, official system.

[Panzerknacker]

I don't really care about how the internal system of the game works that defines expensive mode and how mods behave with that system or what not. I just want to be able when I start a new game click on Marathon and press the play button. Wether it automatically loads a official mod when I do that or not I don't care about, as long as everything is the same, achievements work normally etc.

[rhynex]

@braxbro to be honest I fully disagree. also noone stops you doing all these things you said was not it half day work already?

There’s no mod announced as official. I would not be surprised if a developer or some widely known mod developer released a pseudo-official expensive mode mod.

it is simple to find out. check mod portal. I see no such mod as of writing, besides my mod. furthermore there is no enforcement that makes other mods to follow it, purely optional... pseudo-official? closest thing that comes to that is https://mods.factorio.com/mod/flib still considering we have thousands of mods in portal, only 350 of them follow it. making such a mod and then enforce everyone to follow it is a big task. this mod is special, it is a requirement for mods. for expensive mod? an optional thing? I hardly think, really.

unfortunately, part of the reason for cutting it was the extremely piecemeal support for the official system. Many mods just did not specify expensive mode recipes, or when they did, they were either incomplete or an afterthought.

maybe because the system did not enforce enough? could that be the reason? if you let your API abuseable then people will abuse. that is a fact, and that is what happened here in my opinion. people did not care enough about expensive mode recipes and wube did not push for it for some (maybe valid, I do not know) reasons. it is understandable though, not many people play it but if you close the door then no one will care about it anymore anyway. at 2.0 we had a chance of enforcing recipe definition more actually but we lose it, and perhaps forever now.

to be honest I do not know how expensive mode came out, so maybe that was intended for something different in the past.

An expensive mode mod can include support for other mods that do not support expensive mode normally, just like how tweak mods work. Furthermore, again, more than one difficulty can be supported by hidden recipes/hidden techs or startup settings.

that will be a hell of a mod that has thousand dependencies for sure years passed in factorio modding and I have not seen such a mod or a group of mods doing what you described. can you give an example? if it did not happen before, I do not think it will happen now.

also a single mod tweaking tens of mods... that is quite a challenge and a big consensus is needed among modders. every attempt is individual and applying personal taste. is there any group doing such a thing? all I know is some modders applying same rules on their mods but they are single modders and only apply stuff to their own mods. a different kind of tweak.

furthermore we are talking about original game recipes, not other mods. every modder is free to do whatever they want, every player is free to load whatever they want. this means everyone has their own expensive mode, which is what we want to avoid, right? otherwise no point in discussion here.

Furthermore, again, more than one difficulty can be supported by hidden recipes/hidden techs or startup settings.

putting startup settings? it has nothing to do with expensive mode. such settings apply to all modes in general, I have not seen a mod doing what you described. any example? this kind of behavior is getting away from what we want as well. just like Panzerknacker said, you select an option from play menu and it will load every expensive recipe, no need with all of the mod settings. if you have more than 10 mods it becomes a big hassle if they all have settings to set.

just because it "can" does not mean it "will". every mod is isolated, and will be isolated, in mindset especially. modders do not have to follow such rules or standards you described. devs could put such enforcements though, but they chose to leave the room.

we can wait and see how it turns out. as of now, I can hardly think or imagine what you described is going to happen. I hope I am wrong on this.

funnily, here is an opposite example: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CheapMode so it is not only one direction of challenge here.

[braxbro]

@braxbro to be honest I fully disagree. also noone stops you doing all these things you said was not it half day work already?

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it is simple to find out. check mod portal. I see no such mod as of writing, besides my mod. furthermore there is no enforcement that makes other mods to follow it, purely optional... pseudo-official? closest thing that comes to that is https://mods.factorio.com/mod/flib still considering we have thousands of mods in portal, only 350 of them follow it. making such a mod and then enforce everyone to follow it is a big task. this mod is special, it is a requirement for mods. for expensive mod? an optional thing? I hardly think, really.

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maybe because the system did not enforce enough? could that be the reason? if you let your API abuseable then people will abuse. that is a fact, and that is what happened here in my opinion. people did not care enough about expensive mode recipes and wube did not push for it for some (maybe valid, I do not know) reasons. it is understandable though, not many people play it but if you close the door then no one will care about it anymore anyway. at 2.0 we had a chance of enforcing recipe definition more actually but we lose it, and perhaps forever now.

to be honest I do not know how expensive mode came out, so maybe that was intended for something different in the past.

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that will be a hell of a mod that has thousand dependencies for sure years passed in factorio modding and I have not seen such a mod or a group of mods doing what you described. can you give an example? if it did not happen before, I do not think it will happen now.

also a single mod tweaking tens of mods... that is quite a challenge and a big consensus is needed among modders. every attempt is individual and applying personal taste. is there any group doing such a thing? all I know is some modders applying same rules on their mods but they are single modders and only apply stuff to their own mods. a different kind of tweak.

furthermore we are talking about original game recipes, not other mods. every modder is free to do whatever they want, every player is free to load whatever they want. this means everyone has their own expensive mode, which is what we want to avoid, right? otherwise no point in discussion here.

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putting startup settings? it has nothing to do with expensive mode. such settings apply to all modes in general, I have not seen a mod doing what you described. any example? this kind of behavior is getting away from what we want as well. just like Panzerknacker said, you select an option from play menu and it will load every expensive recipe, no need with all of the mod settings. if you have more than 10 mods it becomes a big hassle if they all have settings to set.

just because it "can" does not mean it "will". every mod is isolated, and will be isolated, in mindset especially. modders do not have to follow such rules or standards you described. devs could put such enforcements though, but they chose to leave the room.

we can wait and see how it turns out. as of now, I can hardly think or imagine what you described is going to happen. I hope I am wrong on this.

funnily, here is an opposite example: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CheapMode so it is not only one direction of challenge here.

The devs cannot practically force mods to use expensive mode. If it were enforced, mods would most likely just copy-paste the same recipe data twice for both modes.

With that said, if you wanted to recreate the ability to swap at world load, that would not be difficult. You could make a named noise expression with dummy values for each difficulty and assign the value to the preset as normal. From there, on world start, the mod hides the recipes and techs for the wrong mode and shows the ones for the right mode.

As for coordination and adoption effort: one guy or a team of guys who care about variant mod difficulties can make all of these changes from the expensive mode mod’s end. Sure, there could be multiple mods adding multiple expensive modes with differing philosophies. But I don’t foresee expensive mode being missed to the degree that everyone makes their own custom mod for it.

[Stargateur]

the cost of having a modding API as good as factorio one is far belong you imagine.