Mmmm.... making me hungry
Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
I didn't say it made sense, I just answered a questioneradicator wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:46 pmTo me it just doesn't make much sense to express the construciton of a sub-factory in Joules. What you really lose is the time that your existing factory spends on crafting all the parts, the time you lose because your ore fields deplete slightly faster, etc. And as that depends - amongst others - on the current size of your factory it's not meaningful to me to calculate it.Koub wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:10 pm Thx, corrected my post. The cost for extracting the resources and crafting the modules is included in the calculation.
.Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
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coppercoil
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Why do you use speed modules and beacons here? They increase energy cost per produced item. If you need throughput, just build bigger assembler array.
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vanatteveldt
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
The payoff is in the production modules. They increase the number of solid fuel you get per coal (both by giving more oil products per coal and by giving more solid fuel per oil product, so overall gain of 1.3*1.3=1.69). However, they also give a speed debuff, which would make the result really slow and actually consume a lot of energy per product (since the machine needs more time per product). So, you want to add speed modules to compensate, and you don't want to add less prod modules, so beacons are the only option.coppercoil wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:50 am Why do you use speed modules and beacons here? They increase energy cost per produced item. If you need throughput, just build bigger assembler array.
You can do the math easily, but prod modules plus speed beacons are more energy efficient than just the prod modules.
[edit: and if you think you can do better, just build it and see what your net energy is
]Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
If you connect the heavy oil at the top instead looping around the bottom then I think you can remove the pump. Saves a bit of energy.vanatteveldt wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:19 pm Deleting the rocket fuel production indeed had a net positive effect, getting me to 703:
I was hoping using one fewer refinery (with an extra beacon) might give me better results, but I would obviously have to optimize my other beacons (a lot)
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patrick12222010
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Stolen this... Great job!DaveMcW wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:08 am I got up to 705.6 MW by optimizing beacon placement and inserter movement.
705MW.jpg
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vanatteveldt
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Yeah, like 1kWmrvn wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:38 pmIf you connect the heavy oil at the top instead looping around the bottom then I think you can remove the pump. Saves a bit of energy.vanatteveldt wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:19 pm Deleting the rocket fuel production indeed had a net positive effect, getting me to 703:
I was hoping using one fewer refinery (with an extra beacon) might give me better results, but I would obviously have to optimize my other beacons (a lot)
. Well, every little helps, I suppose. The big tickets are refineries and beacons. When the general process is set (liquefaction + solid fuel with full prod modules) the only real optimizations are number of beacons and number of plants... and I don't think I can beat DaveMcW's solution here.
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patrick12222010
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
I just realized that this is really great! I am planning to compress this more (if possible) and deploy in every coal patch I know...patrick12222010 wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:41 amStolen this... Great job!DaveMcW wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:08 am I got up to 705.6 MW by optimizing beacon placement and inserter movement.
705MW.jpg
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Don't forget you need you need 1.8M water per minute to feed that beast.If your map is wery "landy" and not "watery" enough, you'll struggle.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Why it cannot be separated? The entity.working_power = "120kW" and entity.idle_power = "3.6kW". It can be much easier for calculations, but here can be mod, that makes drain much expensive than working power consumption.Koub wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:07 pmNow I did take the time to test it, and you were absolutely right, I apologize, I never noticed drain was active 100% of the timeeradicator wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:53 pm If you don't believe me when i tell you drain is *always* active please take the time to confirm it yourself. I don't know who or where this rumor of adaptive drain started. 375kW+12.5kW=387.5kW. It's also the value that @DaveMcW's function produces if you set it to one_second - as you seem to trust him more than me..
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eradicator
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Completely off topic. Write an interface request if you want engine changes.darkfrei wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:33 am Why it cannot be separated? The entity.working_power = "120kW" and entity.idle_power = "3.6kW". It can be much easier for calculations, but here can be mod, that makes drain much expensive than working power consumption.
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Done. But only in this topic we can understand that even devs think that idle_consumption_power and working_consumption_power must be not simultaneously.eradicator wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:14 pm Completely off topic. Write an interface request if you want engine changes.
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eradicator
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
@Koub is not a dev.darkfrei wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:51 pmDone. But only in this topic we can understand that even devs think that idle_consumption_power and working_consumption_power must be not simultaneously.eradicator wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:14 pm Completely off topic. Write an interface request if you want engine changes.
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
This. I'm just a moderator, so my duty is only to keep this forum clean and tidy and to
Btw, moderator-me speaking : this is getting seriously off-topic, so please every one get back to topic
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SuicideJunkie
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
I imagine it would likely cause trouble with the sandwiching, but what about threading small poles through the system to power the beacons separately?
The working energy is claimed first, and drain gets any leftovers, but doesn't hurt if there is none.
If you use an accumulator buffer to feed only half the required power to your beacons, they'll operate at full effect and you'd save a decent chunk of energy.
Actually, forget separate wiring; just isolate the power generators from the factory as a whole, and only feed in the exact amount (+/- 150kw) that can be usefully used and don't pay for any drain.
DaveMcW's design could free up an extra dozen MW that way.
The working energy is claimed first, and drain gets any leftovers, but doesn't hurt if there is none.
If you use an accumulator buffer to feed only half the required power to your beacons, they'll operate at full effect and you'd save a decent chunk of energy.
Actually, forget separate wiring; just isolate the power generators from the factory as a whole, and only feed in the exact amount (+/- 150kw) that can be usefully used and don't pay for any drain.
DaveMcW's design could free up an extra dozen MW that way.
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Nope. Beacon bonus shrinks smoothly as power decreases.SuicideJunkie wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:13 pmIf you use an accumulator buffer to feed only half the required power to your beacons, they'll operate at full effect and you'd save a decent chunk of energy.
I only have a drain of 301 kW. But that is better than nothing, I am looking forward to seeing your design.SuicideJunkie wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:13 pmjust isolate the power generators from the factory as a whole, and only feed in the exact amount (+/- 150kw) that can be usefully used and don't pay for any drain.
DaveMcW's design could free up an extra dozen MW that way.
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SuicideJunkie
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Ok, I'm confused now. I was sure that beacons had half their consumption as drain and half as normal consumption. But I loaded up 0.16, and I don't see it there either.
It looks like Beacons lost their extra 480kW drain between v0.15 and v0.16, and I've never noticed.
That makes it far less useful. Sorry.
It looks like Beacons lost their extra 480kW drain between v0.15 and v0.16, and I've never noticed.
That makes it far less useful. Sorry.
Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
I'm not sure I understand the thing about half drain, but with 0.17, beacons consume continuously 480 kW.
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eradicator
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Besidest the whole idea sounds like it is based on the annoyingly stubborn myth that "drain" is only consumed when a machine is idle. Which is ofc false. And if drain is even calculated seperatedly at all it is probably consumed before dynamic consumption, meaning that if you need 100W+10W drain and only supply 100W, you're machine gets 90/100W and thus works 10% slower than maximum.
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Re: Challenge: maximum net energy from a blue belt of coal
Nope. Test it with 2 assembling-machine-2 and 5 solar panels, they run at full speed and don't pay any drain.eradicator wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:00 amAnd if drain is even calculated seperatedly at all it is probably consumed before dynamic consumption