Minimal nuclear power for artillery outpost?

[zOldBulldog]

I have not run the numbers yet, but I'm guessing that a single reactor could power all the lasers and other gear at an artillery outpost. But I couldn't find any examples in the forums or by googling.

Has anybody ever tried powering an artillery/laser outpost with a small self-contained nuclear reactor (fuel cells delivered by train of course)?

[DaveMcW]

Nuclear requires water, which is not always available.

If you are shipping in water, you might as well ship in superheated steam instead.

[darkfrei]

Has anybody ever tried powering an artillery/laser outpost with a small self-contained nuclear reactor (fuel cells delivered by train of course)?

You can make small setup with accumulators and solar panels.
If you play with mods, this mod can helps you: nuclear entity with endless power production. The power goes down, but normally it's enough to charge accumulators.

[zOldBulldog]

@daveMcW, This is not for the occasional expansion party, I plan to use this primarily for an end-of-line artillery/laser battery as I expand and I see a number of concerns (may be irrelevant, but I'll mention them just in case):

- I will have quite a few lasers in this artillery battery, to deal with the waves of assaults as I destroy nests in a previously untouched area.
- The attacks will likely be massive and frequent.
- The distance to the source of supplies will likely be fairly significant as I would like to make an undefended, unpowered train line that goes FAR to reach larger ore deposits.
- The rail will likely have only 1 lane in each direction at this distance, and I would rather not have to build a stacker just for the artillery outpost. That means only one train (or at most one train per kind of delivery) being scheduled.

So, will one 4-wagon superheated steam train be enough to keep this running while waiting for a delivery? Maybe with 4 tanks to hold the steam between deliveries?

Thanks.

@darkfrei, I did consider using one of the advanced solar mods that would let me use a single high level solar panel and accumulator for the whole thing. But that would probably mean doing it later in the game, and I would like to use this even for an initial railworld artillery-based expansion wave. So, it looks like the solution I need is either nuclear+water or superheated steam delivery.

[xfir01]

Couple numbers you might find useful:
A storage tank filled with heat exchanger 500°C steam stores around 2,400 MJ.
Laser turrets take 800kj per shot or approximately 3000 shots per storage tank.


Really, though, sounds like it'd be easier to just drag some power poles over to it. You'll need it for the mining sites anyway.

[vanatteveldt]

For dealing with large waves I think shipping in some oil and adding flame turrets is more effective.

I've had success with shipping in steam in one wagon and barreled oil, ammo, repair packs and other goodies in another.

[zOldBulldog]

Couple numbers you might find useful:
A storage tank filled with heat exchanger 500°C steam stores around 2,400 MJ.
Laser turrets take 800kj per shot or approximately 3000 shots per storage tank.


Really, though, sounds like it'd be easier to just drag some power poles over to it. You'll need it for the mining sites anyway.

Thanks for the numbers.

I could (and have in the past) drag the power poles. And somehow the biters usually don't waste too much time on poles as I bomb their nests.

But I want to eventually migrate from Railworld-style settings (no expansion) to more normal ones where I have to worry about biters expanding and chewing on power poles... which could leave an outpost without power at a critical moment.

@vanatteveldt, thanks I'll consider adding flame turrets.

[TruePikachu]

I believe it's still the case where expansion only goes so far from existing nests, so depending on how large the area you've cleared out is, the power lines might not have much risk. Actually, with respect to expansion parties, the power lines have the same risk as the train tracks, though I guess it's probably less dangerous for the track to get cut.

If you're worried about expansion parties coming to play, invest in longer artillery range. IIRC, you don't need radar coverage on a nest for it to automatically get targetted.

[zOldBulldog]

the power lines have the same risk as the train tracks

Train tracks and signals can get attacked now? I thought they were supposed to be immune to attacks because they don't block enemy movements.

[BlakeMW]

Train tracks and signals can get attacked now? I thought they were supposed to be immune to attacks because they don't block enemy movements.

There are two circumstances where they will take damage.

The first is splash damage from acid spitballs which were aimed at something else (i.e. a train), Spitters don't shoot at trains unless the train contains a player, or the train has just murdered a biter/spitter, so actually trains don't get spat at much and this is unlikely to occur unless you're like literally running a track through a biter nest, even when it does occur tracks take about 5 spitballs from end game spitters to be destroyed (signals are killed much more easily, but it's even more unlikely a signal would get splashed).

The second is if the biters are aggravated and in "kill everything in the area" mode in which case they really will kill everything in the area without exception, I think that this mode occurs when they reach their primary target zone after being dispatched on an anti-pollution crusade, or it might be enough that they are an attacking group dispatched due to pollution AND encounter something they hate such as a radar. In any case biters in the wild which haven't been provoked into attacking by pollution (i.e. those which are migrating, or those provoked by their nest being attacked) don't seem to enter this aggravated state and wont intentionally attack rails or signals.

[MeduSalem]

I would say getting power out to the outposts has always been a problem. If you don't use power poles then you have ridiculous contraptions at the outpost (no matter if you build a local power plant or deliver something there)... If you use power poles then they might end up getting attacked. And even if not the rails itself may also get attacked sometimes for some reasons.


I usually lay power poles out to the outposts because it's easier for me to expand my main power plant than build a new power plant every time I set up a new outpost, which then will be torn down again at some point anyway.


The way I have started to deal with biters attacking the power poles is that I have at least a 4-6 tiles gap between rails where I place roboports at max distance from each other all the way of the track for the sole purpose of reparing the track and also turrets covering the roboports.

To avoid the robots flying accross into netherland each straight section of the rail network has its own independent logistic network, so bots can't leave their area and fly off somewhere else, which is important when the track makes a 90 degree turn or there's a crossing. On 90 degree curves or Crosses I use 2 chests with inserter in between where one chest is a provider in one network and the other a requester in the other network so items like repairpacks, ammunition, more bots and rails etc can be transfered from one network to the other network.


So even if biters manage to tear down a power pole in between the roboports somewhere it will be repaired/replaced and the connection is re-established fully automatically and all items are restocked, including destroyed bots and everything.

It also helps automatically building/deconstructing new outposts as the materials don't come by train but over the logistic network that runs alongside the rail network. Yeah I tried to use trains for outpost building/deconstruction but it sucked majorly and I never found a proper way to automate it and abandoned construction trains ever since I had the idea of running a logistic network in parallel of the track for low quantity items and maintainance. The rail network is only there to transport the bulk ores to my mainbase.

Having turrets guarding the roboports as point defenses along the rail track usually guarantees anyway that not much gets destroyed and that expansion parties get killed before they can cross to the other side of the track (even if they don't inherently want to attack the power poles).

In extreme cases one could also wall it off, but I haven't had the need for it yet.


One may say it's ugly, but with blueprints its actually pretty easy to do... and can be used to automatically expand the railnetwork as well, so I don't need FARL or tons of rails in my inventory... I can even do it from back home at my base over the map screen and don't even need to travel out there myself.

[vanatteveldt]

[..]But I want to eventually migrate from Railworld-style settings (no expansion) to more normal ones where I have to worry about biters expanding and chewing on power poles... which could leave an outpost without power at a critical moment.

@vanatteveldt, thanks I'll consider adding flame turrets.

The nice thing of flame turrets is that it does aoe damage, so it works wonders against large mobs.

I used a combination of flame turrets and gun turrets, so the only power required is for picking up ammo and repair bots. I added 2 solar panels, which seem to generate enough power so at least they can slowly pickup ammo in between waves. So, when power is cut the outpost is fine for a while and I can go investigate.

If you have laser, guns, and flame, I think generally the gun turrets won't see much action, so they won't consume too much ammo. If power is cut, the flame and gun turrets will remain active.

[BlueTemplar]

What kind of giant artillery outpost do you want to make that it would need a nuclear reactor to power !?!

I believe it's still the case where expansion only goes so far from existing nests, so depending on how large the area you've cleared out is, the power lines might not have much risk. Actually, with respect to expansion parties, the power lines have the same risk as the train tracks, though I guess it's probably less dangerous for the track to get cut.

AFAIK (and in 0.16, not sure about 0.17), biters only will attack "rail" power poles if you aggro biters by being carried by a train nearby... and maybe only if the biter density is high enough that the only path at that moment lies through a pole ?

[zOldBulldog]

What kind of giant artillery outpost do you want to make that it would need a nuclear reactor to power !?!

Not giant, it was more about avoiding vulnerable powerpoles. I remember this couple of times when they killed the power and the only choice I had was to get in the train and run at them to smash them, until I could go fix the line and put some lasers to protect the spot. Boring as hell.

So far it sounds like delivering superheated steam might be the better way to generate power locally.

[Fishy]

If you are just trying to avoid power poles getting destroyed, then don't even bother with the laser turrets.
If you are bringing in a train anyways, just fill it with raw oil, ammo, and wood (or coal), and use flame throwers with gun turrets fed with burner inserters. Then you only have to power the train unload station with a few solar panels.

Edit: Would also have to power roboports(for repairs) I suppose. Would something like this be enough?

[Dixi]

- Biters, normally, attack only pollution producing things, everything else only when too bored. At least I had some power lines across biters controlled territory and they completely ignored them.
- Nuclear reactor is not a compact thingy.
- Majority of base defense plans still agree, that it's better to have electricity global available. You can make two power lines from different directions, for reservation.
- storing overheated steam - I think it's strange idea, and with lots of laser turrets you'll have big chances to run out of steam and power with it.

[TruePikachu]

- storing overheated steam - I think it's strange idea, and with lots of laser turrets you'll have big chances to run out of steam and power with it.

An accumulator stores 5MJ of power in the space of four tiles, for 1.25MJ of power per tile. A tank of nuclear steam stores 2.425GJ of power in the space of nine, for 269.444MJ of power per tile -- over 200 times the energy density of accumulators. If given the choice between storing nuclear power in accumulators or steam tanks, I'd choose the latter if space and/or resource cost are an issue.

Each tank of steam provides the energy for slightly more than 3,000 laser shots (which never miss), and can provide up to 60,625HP of damage (a bit more than 30 behemoth biters), assuming you can handle the electrical drain. By the same math, each tank of steam provides a bit more than 100,000 turret-seconds of electrical drain; a group of 100 can last over 15 minutes using a single steam tank for handling drain. (Useful conversion factors to know: 1 kilo-second is more than 15 minutes, being 16min40s.)

You'd also rarely use a single tank to store the energy at the remote site; I'd probably build up deliveries of four fluid wagons unloading into sixteen tanks, possibly also with a stacker (depending on how many trains are used for this purpose). While more space is being used, the volume (and therefore potential power storage) is increasing much faster than the perimeter (and therefore potential power consumption) -- and no more pollution (read: it's still zero at the remote site) is being generated, resulting in no greater numbers of attackers being expected.

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Also, who says you can't use power lines for primary power, and nuclear steam as a backup power source if the main power lines get destroyed?

[Ultros]

If you want to go with steam storage you'll need to take into account the drain rate as well. A fully powered and upgraded laser drains about 8MW (9.6 shots per second), and a turbine only provides 5.6MW at peak, meaning you need roughly 1.4 turbines per laser turret in order for it to supply the max power output of the lasers. Since biter attacks are very transient (everything dies after like 20 seconds), the limiting factor is likelier to be the turbines rather than the number of tanks.

[zOldBulldog]

Thanks guys.

Summarizing all of the advice:

I still need to study and fully understand the math, but so far it sounds like 4 fluid wagons delivering superheated steam, 16 tanks for storage, X (I need to calculate it) turbines will run up to 100 lasers long enough to deal with any attack.

Additional things to consider:
- roboports and robots, for initial setup, dismantling and repairs
- having a power line anyway, to supply power most of the time, but knowing it will occasionally be broken down (or two lines for almost certain unbroken power).
- using flamethrower turrets (with crude or flamethrower fluid deliveries) to supplement the damage.

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Alternative "cheap" approach:

- Forget all the complexity above.
- In the earlier game run 2 power lines, so that if one gets attacked the other still provides power (and be ready to run over by train with lasers to reinforce an attacked spot).
- In the later game use an advanced solar setup with just one or two high power solar panels and accumulators.

[TruePikachu]

A fully powered and upgraded laser drains about 8MW (9.6 shots per second)

...what? Are you confusing peak electrical consumption with drain? Wiki says only 24kW drain, and IIRC drain doesn't increase with upgrades.