Research going too fast/easy while I do other things?

[TPReal]

Hi guys. For some context: I've been playing 0.17 for about 20h, and this is just the second time I'm playing (I played some 300h of 0.16 before). I mostly figure out stuff by myself, I don't use publicly available blueprints a lot, what I do is just tinkering. So, I grow my base, refactor parts of it, realise problems with resources, throughput, whatever - all these things take a lot of time, like you know, setting up a new mining outpost and bringing resources from there is for me like almost an hour because I try to fix a ton of other stuff as I go.

So here's my problem: all this time I tinker with the base, the research is working. I have some not very efficient pipeline for producing basic 4 or 5 science packs, but I use so much time working on various things that this is enough to discover easily all the technologies for which those science pack types are sufficient. As a result, a long time ago I got access to combat bots, to nuclear power, to laser turrets, to modules, to many cool things that I didn't really have time to use or even test yet. And yet the research continues, and I keep researching more and more stuff that I have no use of for now, maybe eventually I will use them but right now I don't even know what they are.

Somehow this doesn't feel right. And I remember having the same impression when I was playing 0.16 over a year ago. I do research but how I play has no connection whatsoever to the things I'm researching. The research just happens because once I set up science pipelines and went to do other stuff, the science just trickles slowly but steadily, and is way ahead of the base.

I remember waiting for trains research to finish, and for electric furnaces, and of course some of the even earlier things, but after that, I just feel like all I might want is already discovered long before I get the chance to use it. How the research works right now looks like it's good for speedruns or at least for people who just try to advance the technology fast, but I'm more fond of tinkering with what I have slowly, until I feel it works nice, and only then going to the next thing.

I'm thinking about a solution to this "not right" feeling I have about this, and I think maybe if there are technologies A->B in the tree, B should only be available after I not only research A, but also "use" it - at least for some A's. For example I could only improve laser speed after actually setting up some lasers. Or I could only invent kovarex process after actually mining some uranium. Or I could only discover automatic train control after having a manually controlled train built and set up. It would be more life-like - I'm working on a continuation of a technology only after I really have some use for the technology itself.

Has anyone else had this feeling? Any thoughts?

[Serenity]

It's always been that way. There is research that you need to do to unlock important items early on, but eventually you research a lot faster than you can implement stuff. Higher level research is a resource sink though, so if you don't have much ore for example it can make sense to hold off in stuff you don't really need.

[bobucles]

There is not much difference between the cost of techs. For roughly the same expense you can either unlock most of the train stuff, or power through most of the chemistry science. It's all the same.

The quickest solution I have is to take advantage of the science potion research. Make most recipes a bit cheaper, but instead vastly increase the cost of researching new potion colors. So for example automated rail transportation is reduced to 50R/50G (a 1/3 drop), but chemical science pack is increased 5-10x to 400-750 science packs. The main gating factor becomes the new tier unlock, giving more time to experiment with the current tier.

It's a bit of a grindy solution but it is a method for changing the pace of progression.

[DerGraue]

I remember having a very similar experience after I had a few 100 hours into the game. Research happened to fast and I was overwhelmed by so many new things.

My solution back then was to install the marathon mod, which made everything more expensive. Luckily for you this is now basically integrated into the game. Before you create a new map you can increase the costs for items and also set a science multiplier so research is more expensive and takes longer to complete. That way you have time to watch your factory working, maybe you have to improve your designs to speed things up.

Perhaps using those options helps you to make the game more interesting.

[Stakhanov]

I think this is mostly due to the nature of the game - if research is slow , you can always expand it and the materials extraction and processing needed to support it until it's no longer slow. But it's true that the game has fairly cheap research with default settings , I think this was decided to allow new players to unlock most researches and upgrades before launching the rocket. You can always increase the research cost multiplier before starting a new game - it's possible to make it feel like a real marathon with a 100x cost multiplier which pushes you to build a low-tech megabase with everything automated. But there are drawbacks to this - having to handcraft the first 1000 science , build lengthy belts to outposts instead of trains early on , and siege hives with flamethrower turrets since tanks will take a long time to unlock.

[TPReal]

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. I think increasing the science multiplier is the way to go, I'll try that next time. Probably not 100x, but maybe 10x will be fine, I don't want to go too hardcore. I guess with 10x I still won't have enough time to get bored :)

[SirSmuggler]

It seems to me the easiest solution is to not start a new research until you feel ready? There is nothing forcing you to keep reseach going all the time.

[Kaiji]

I agree with OP.

It makes me feel overwhelmed with options which demotivates me and it doesn't feel like a streamlined progression.

It would be more satisfying for me to unlock several sub-groups of research based on what I specifically want to do next than to have a swathe of options open up all of a sudden.

As it is, it feels like the research system hasn't been given enough design attention. I think the way it works functionally could do with an overhaul.

[Serenity]

As it is, it feels like the research system hasn't been given enough design attention. I think the way it works functionally could do with an overhaul.

They've redone the science at least twice. And 0.17 also saw some of the dependencies changed. But that can't fundamentally change that a lot of the early science is simply very cheap. Late game research is expensive, but the only way you can draw out the early game is just change the cost multiplier

[mrvn]

There are two situations you can have in the game:

1) You lack resources. Either you don't have enough ore fields or not enough miners and smelters. Either way you are waiting for materials.

At this point pausing the research means you speed up other production and this is the way to go.

2) You have plenty of resources but can't keep up with expanding the base.

So all those nice iron and copper plates and other staff keep piling up. Only drain is science. So why would you halt that? There is no incentive to do so even if you can't use the stuff you are researching. So it just keeps chugging along in the background adding more and more backlog to your expansion.


There is a sweet spot between 1 and 2 where your research matches your expansion. But it's hard to achieve and maintain. And I don't see any way to keep the player in that spot. One thing one can to is add buffer chests to your science production and build more science labs than you produce packs for. So when your research is ahead of the curve you pause it and fill the buffer chests. Then when you need the next thing researched you use that buffer to research at super speed.

But still no real incentive to do so. It's more a "Oh, no idea what I will need next. Let buffer some science so that when I decide what I need I can get it fast".

[Kaiji]

They've redone the science at least twice.

The game is still in development so there's no reason why they can't keep redoing it.

As it is, the current research system gives off a real "This'll have to do for now" vibe.

[Skev]

Totally agree that research is too fast and cheap, with default settings the research just FLIES by. Currently playing on 1/8th resources (50% frequency, 50% size, 50% richness) and 8x research cost and it seems much more reasonable... except for the very start of the game (pre- automation & logistics) which is excruciating. They really should mess with the default settings since they don't result in a game experience where you feel like every research is meaningful.

[leadraven]

Yeah, the same feeling.
Marathon mode x4 made it much better. May be next time I'll set up even higher multiplier, or less resources.
But multiplier doesn't fix one major thing : researches price increase must be much higher. Personal fusion reactor requires 200 packs, steel axe - 50 packs. Yes, it's all packs vs only red packs, but 4 times?! I actually don't need to expand red science production. Late-game researches must be ~10 times more expensive.
Currently only infinite researches force player to expand. Entire main progression works perfectly on basic science setup.

[SirSmuggler]

I think reseach seems to "fly by" for veteran players and players how have watched a lot of you-tubers play. For me when I first played the game (and I going to assume that this is simmilar for a lot of players, even if not for all) I built a couple of smelters for my iron and automated some red science. I then keept adding on production of with what ever new stuff I reseached. Ocationaly I added a smelter or two, or upgraded some belts. Needles to say, reseach was not to fast at all.
What I did NOT do was get the idea that I should build a gigantic smelter array to fully satturate several full belts of iron and copper and what ever else I could build. That kind of thing didn't happen until my second or mabye even third playthrough. And at that time I was perfectly able to adjust game settings to my likeing.

In short, I think we should be carefull to not end up with default settings geared to experianced player. Better to let them be good for first time players and let us veterans have the "burden" of having to fidel with setrtings to get what we want.

[leadraven]

Technically, game supports multiple presets for research costs. But currently here is only 1 option) All we need is "experienced" config. Correct?

[basementjack]

@TPReal I share your feelings.

I feel like Factorio peaked at version 14.x

The balance in 14 was pretty good.

Today, Factorio's turned into an exercise in frustration.

I think you've hit on something - however - once you configure/automate Green/Red packs, it's pretty easy to just 'let it run' and you can research everything that needs red/green without any effort on the part of the factory.

I also think the formulas are pretty frustrating, I look at blue packs, then what they require, then what THAT requires, and I don't even want to attempt it.

If you can find it in the Archives, pull up the last version of 14.x they did - that was pretty fun to play.

[TPReal]

I feel like Factorio peaked at version 14.x (...) Today, Factorio's turned into an exercise in frustration. (...) I also think the formulas are pretty frustrating, I look at blue packs, then what they require, then what THAT requires, and I don't even want to attempt it.

Well, here I cannot agree. I mean, I didn't play 0.14 but I quite like the change from 0.16 to 0.17 and I suppose the game is becoming better and better. I don't feel frustrated, I'm just prepared that everything takes a long time to build. For example, blue packs are hard, but I know how to construct all of that. It took me about 8h to actually set up a pipeline for blue packs because I needed to optimise ton of stuff, to get oil processing right and fast, and to completely rebuild production of copper wire because of how much of it is needed, also because I needed to expand my electricity source considerably. But all of that is fun engineering, and even more fun if I have a goal in sight - the blue packs.

The problem is that once I have them, again, all science requiring them just flies by while I'm doing other stuff. Even though the pipeline is not very efficient.

What bothers me is that most of the time I don't look at the technologies tree. Instead of planning, most of the time I just select the first yellow technology and let it run. This is my problem.

[TPReal]

OK, I'm now playing a new game with science cost multiplier set to 10, and it feels much better. I need to choose technologies carefully or wait for them a long time. I have some oil processing, but I still use the small power poles because I never found the time to invent the large ones. I will probably need to invent them at some point to easily power remote mining sites etc, but for now I still don't have trains so I'm leaving the problem for later. In general the decisions about technologies are much more meaningful. I can recommend this setting.

It was weird though to create 100 red sciences by hand to even get automation, and this also means automation must really be the first tech invented.

[apoptosis]

That´s exactly what I was feeling when I played the first few playthroughs. I usually now set the technology multiplier to 20x (with rather rich ores because u will need a lot for research) and reduce the biter evolution a bit. Now it´s much better, especially in middle game. Early game is a bit of a grind and in late game some technologies will also take ages to research but overall I´m happy.

The main problem I´m having is adjusting biter evolution: too low and I can ignore them for the whole game; too high and I cannot keep up with research (piercing and damage upgrades) and large and behemoth appear before I´m able to deal with them.

[steinio]

Can you please come to an agreement: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=69009