Is "Lazy Bastard" appropriate?

[Jap2.0]

As the title says: is lazy bastard an appropriate name for an achievement? Here are a few things to think about:

• Most Factorio players are post-college age, so they don't have to worry about parents making them stop playing Factorio due to a somewhat bad word, but I have seen mention of Factorio players who are teenagers, and Factorio players who let their children play.
• Factorio has fairly little text, and "bastard" is the only word that is bad whatsoever.
• The way it is used does not really insult anyone other than the player.
• Most people don't see the achievements list until after they buy the game, so it probably won't influence their buying decision.
• Most Factorio players probably don't care that it is a bad word, but some might.
• Long-time Factorio players have probably gotten used to or even attached to the name, but new players would never know.
• Factorio has exceptionally little gory violence and bad words compared to lots of other games. Does that mean it has an excuse to use one or should keep from using it?

I think this is a discussion the community should have,at least before 1.0.

Edit: Read the comments below before you voice you opinion, as there are a lot of people who have made very good points.

[tobsimon]

Soo, "lazybones" might be a friendlier phrasing. Or maybe "slacker"?

[Koub]

I'm deeply convinced people should not censor themselves in the vocabulary they use to "protect" the younger's ears.
I was a compulsive reader when I was a kid. I literally started reading the dictionary (up to 'M' letter) when I was like 8 iirc. Do you suggest that rude words should be removed from dictionnary just because a child might see them ? Of course not.
Same thing for video games.

Lazy bastard is actually my very favorite achievement name, I'd be pissed off if it was changed for being "inappropriate".

[SirMai]

The world is full of those "bad" words.
And not every sentence or phrase is unappropiate just because of one of these words.
When i see some of my friends carrying 2 heavy items instead of going twice i might just call him a lazy bastard without meaning to do any harm.
I think the discussion about one single not really so bad word is just a little bit over the top.

But thats only my european/german opinion.
As yours is probably a bit US orientated.

[Jap2.0]

I'm deeply convinced people should not censor themselves in the vocabulary they use to "protect" the younger's ears.
I was a compulsive reader when I was a kid. I literally started reading the dictionary (up to 'M' letter) when I was like 8 iirc. Do you suggest that rude words should be removed from dictionnary just because a child might see them ? Of course not.
Same thing for video games.

Lazy bastard is actually my very favorite achievement name, I'd be pissed off if it was changed for being "inappropriate".

I am by no means advocating either way (or at least trying not to). I simply thought this was something people probably never thought about but should. I by no means think the dictionary should be censored (although I myself find browsing through encyclopedias much more entertaining than dictionaries). I have read a ton for a long time, and could by some people's definition still be a kid, and I have seen quite a few bad words in books (perhaps some of that comes from the fact that I read so much and at a level fairly high compared to most of my peers). I agree with most of your post - although I would say that most people, especially parents and teachers would disagree about your initial statement. Are you saying that children's TV shows should contain he same language you might hear in a movie rated R or PG-13? Are you saying that you wouldn't hesitate to curse, swear, or use other bad language near children? I'm not trying to turn this into an ethics debate, but I feel that using bad language near children can have bad effects. In school, I noticed that the children who had parents who used bad language used it more in school (although there were certainly exceptions) and they also generally tended to break more rules (such as rules about being nice and not using bad language) and respect authority less. Of course, if that's you opinion, that's your opinion and I can't force you to change that.

[Patashu]

I think this is okay. The tone of the achievement suggests a cheeky/joshing use, not an insulting use. After all, Factorio is all about being lazy and having machines do the work. Being the laziest bastard is a compliment.

[Jap2.0]

The world is full of those "bad" words.
And not every sentence or phrase is unappropiate just because of one of these words.
When i see some of my friends carrying 2 heavy items instead of going twice i might just call him a lazy bastard without meaning to do any harm.
I think the discussion about one single not really so bad word is just a little bit over the top.

But thats only my european/german opinion.
As yours is probably a bit US orientated.

I see what you mean. The point you brought up about this being a cultural issue is a huge thing I overlooked (I'm from the US), so along with other people's opinions different cultures may have different views here, and these words may be used slightly different. The translations would be interesting as well, as translating can change the implications of words, and few words have exact translations..

[impetus maximus]

i think the name is very appropriate for the achievement.
you know what? it is inappropriate because there is nothing lazy about it.
it's a lot of work not being able to hand craft things here and there.

pisses me off when i see 'Lazy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" in a steam thread instead of 'Lazy Bastard'.
so they let you call it that, but we can't talk about it?

[Koub]

I see what you mean. The point you brought up about this being a cultural issue is a huge thing I overlooked (I'm from the US), so along with other people's opinions different cultures may have different views here, and these words may be used slightly different. The translations would be interesting as well, as translating can change the implications of words, and few words have exact translations..

The cultural thing is the first thing that came to my mind too (I'm from France, and I told to myself "That looks so typically American"), but I tried to dismiss that thought and answer regardless of where you may or may not be from.
I was raised in a way that I was educated more than I was protected. That didn't mean my parents used bad words by dozens, just that I was explained the very exact meaning of these words, explained why they were inelegant and inadequate most of the time and made people who used them seem uneducated, and finally was raised under the concept that a child did not have the insight to tell wether it was socially acceptable or not to use a bad word at a given point, and thus should restrain myself into using them.
That totally worked, and I think it's the right thing to do : I've never seen the way you're suggesting we should do have a positive effect. I don't live in the US, but tell me : Does the fact that parents protect their children from hearing bad words prevent them from hearing them somewhere accidentally and use them because that's kinda cool and a forbidden thing (cool BECAUSE it's forbidden) ?

In France, I've seen families where children were raised as I was, and families where children were raised as you describe. In the former, bad words were not taboo, and I've seen children literally troll their parents and make fun of them because a bad word escaped one of them at one moment. And that was all, no drama.

Don't take me wrong : I'm not upset, just debating .

And when I watch the French translation, it has been totally "unflavored", which I personnally regret, because I find the original much more entertaining .

[kingarthur]

the way i see it is that factorio technically doesn't have an age rating anywhere that would limit them from using words like bastard and no matter how you purchase it you have to be of a certain age. most likely 18 because you`d need a bank account or credit card or paypal or something like that. the lowest age requirement i know of is steam requires you to be at least 13.

Steam is an online service offered by Valve.

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by completing the registration of a Steam user account. This Agreement takes effect as soon as you indicate your acceptance of these terms. You may not become a subscriber if you are under the age of 13. Steam is not intended for children under 13 and Valve will not knowingly collect personal information from children under the age of 13.

i feel 13 is old enough to hear/ see the word bastard. if they are younger than that its the parents fault for not keeping a better eye on what their child is doing.

also thats like saying damn is a curse word and it sounds like dam. should we censor the hoover dam. maybe change the name to the great wall of Colorado or the hoover wall?

[ledow]

Rather than pretend that children don't see, hear, repeat and use such words, try this.

Educate your child what the word means, punish if they use it out of context or unnecessarily for effect (i.e. every other word to look big in front of their friends)

To be honest, as far as my parenting goes, that's absolutely fine. I don't see that a child of any mature age is going to go "LOOK, LOOK, IT'S GOT A SWEAR WORD!". It's not inappropriate. It's an ordinary phrase. I have *called* children of the ages that would find this game interesting the exact same thing. Dungeons of Dredmor is a lot more child-friendly and yet has the same kind of wording in it. TF2 too (although it could be argued that TF2 is more violent, it's certainly not graphic and is played by a lot of young kids).

The rules on TV transmission/film ratings in most countries even allow swear-words, it's the number, context and frequency that matter. Yes, a PG movie can have swearing in it.

Rather than baby-sit other people's children for them, I'd prefer the developers just made a game.

And, to be honest, I *would* be put off by a game with a swear-word every other word just for effect - it's childish and silly. This isn't.

[mrvn]

the way i see it is that factorio technically doesn't have an age rating anywhere that would limit them from using words like bastard and no matter how you purchase it you have to be of a certain age. most likely 18 because you`d need a bank account or credit card or paypal or something like that. the lowest age requirement i know of is steam requires you to be at least 13.

Steam is an online service offered by Valve.

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by completing the registration of a Steam user account. This Agreement takes effect as soon as you indicate your acceptance of these terms. You may not become a subscriber if you are under the age of 13. Steam is not intended for children under 13 and Valve will not knowingly collect personal information from children under the age of 13.

i feel 13 is old enough to hear/ see the word bastard. if they are younger than that its the parents fault for not keeping a better eye on what their child is doing.

also thats like saying damn is a curse word and it sounds like dam. should we censor the hoover dam. maybe change the name to the great wall of Colorado or the hoover wall?

In Germany / EU any game not rated is for adults only (18+) and must be sold under the counter, out of reach of minors and so on. So all the millions of Tetris clones are 18+. Any Linux distribution you can buy is legally 18+. So long as nobody makes an issue out of it nobody cares.

But darn, now you've gone and complained about "Lazy Bastard", which is actually not lazy at all. Never worked so hard as to get the lazy award.

[daniel34]

In Germany / EU any game not rated is for adults only (18+) and must be sold under the counter, out of reach of minors and so on. So all the millions of Tetris clones are 18+. Any Linux distribution you can buy is legally 18+. So long as nobody makes an issue out of it nobody cares.

Most tetris clones are rated USK 0 (Everyone) in Germany. I can't provide a direct link because it uses the HTML Post feature, but just go to usk.de and enter 'tetris' into the search window, or see the attached picture.

Image

factorio-usk-tetris.png (55.49 KiB) Viewed 10288 times

The ESRB (for the US and Canada) has the same listing, see http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.aspx ... her=tetris.

It is also worth noting that the USK (german rating agency for video games, "Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle") only applies to games that have been released on a physical disk, exempting Factorio from that rule. There is no consensus on how to rate games that are only sold online (e.g. Steam), at the moment it is a legal gray area.

I'm sure though that if Factorio would be judged by the USK it would receive a rating for 6 and up (strategy, skill and learning) or 12 and up (fantasy and strategy, with an emphasis on battle).

As for the main discussion, I agree with Koub that it is a cultural or language thing. Although the word "bastard" has the same meaning in German (illegimate child) it is rarely used that way. I only understood it after it was used in such a way and I looked it up. Nowadays it is only used as a swear word, to belittle the other person in a derogative way, and I think the devs also used it in that spirit.

Actually, the German translation for the achievement is "Faule Socke", which translates to "Lazy sock", a person who is always lazy. Likewise, the French translated it to "A big hair in the hand". I think that most people want the translation to be true to the original, but nobody wants to be the one to do it. Hence the reason that at least the German and French translations don't contain the word "bastard" and use euphemisms instead.

Should the achievement contain the word "bastard"? I'm not sure. However I don't see a reason against it, even the 7 bullet points in Jap2.0's first post don't argue against it. In my opinion I would keep it, since it doesn't damage anyone and is just one of the quirks of Factorio. I think that if a child is old enough to play Factorio, it is also old enough to read that word and understand its meaning within the context of the game.

[mrvn]

I think "Faule Socke" is a perfect german translation for lazy bastard. The idea wasn't to be derogatory but to describe a lazy person which this does.

[Jap2.0]

I see what you mean. The point you brought up about this being a cultural issue is a huge thing I overlooked (I'm from the US), so along with other people's opinions different cultures may have different views here, and these words may be used slightly different. The translations would be interesting as well, as translating can change the implications of words, and few words have exact translations..

The cultural thing is the first thing that came to my mind too (I'm from France, and I told to myself "That looks so typically American"), but I tried to dismiss that thought and answer regardless of where you may or may not be from.
I was raised in a way that I was educated more than I was protected. That didn't mean my parents used bad words by dozens, just that I was explained the very exact meaning of these words, explained why they were inelegant and inadequate most of the time and made people who used them seem uneducated, and finally was raised under the concept that a child did not have the insight to tell wether it was socially acceptable or not to use a bad word at a given point, and thus should restrain myself into using them.

For all I know some families could use that tactic in the U.S. as well - I now realize I'm speaking from more of a "this is what happened in my family" perspective, with a few inferences based on what I saw throughout my time in school. My family didn't really use "bad" words, so I didn't hear them much at home (although I did hear a some elsewhere - you can't keep everyone and the internet from using them ), and I kind of just understood that I shouldn't use them (I only remember being told they were bad words specifically once). How your parents did it actually makes a lot of sense, considering that you would hear them anyways at some point.

That totally worked, and I think it's the right thing to do : I've never seen the way you're suggesting we should do have a positive effect. I don't live in the US, but tell me : Does the fact that parents protect their children from hearing bad words prevent them from hearing them somewhere accidentally and use them because that's kinda cool and a forbidden thing (cool BECAUSE it's forbidden) ?

I guess, now that I think about it, a lot of it was from me being a "good kid" and realizing that my parents didn't want me saying those words, even if they didn't really have to tell me that right to my face. I do agree that some other children I knew took that as a lesson to simply not say them when their parents or teachers were around, not simply to not say them - although lots of those kids were the kind of kid who would use it in a derogatory sense pretty much no matter what their parents said, as they were generally more of the bullying kind of person. I think that there would be a few of that kind of kid pretty much no matter what. It sounds like your parents made them somewhat forbidden as well. I guess it's a little bit like speeding - you never do it when you're around the police, and lots of people do it but only a little. If we're going with that analogy, it's kind of like kids who don't see their parents speed a lot and understand that it isn't something you're supposed to do, the kids who don't speed because they're terrified the police might catch them, and the kids whose parents explain to them that they might kill people if they speed.

Of course, that's not a very good analogy, but all in all it sounds like your way works at least as well. I won't claim to be an expert or anything even close on this topic and I'm sorry if I'm missing a lot here. It comes from not having kids or really even having friends who have kids. I'm not quite to that point in my life yet .

In France, I've seen families where children were raised as I was, and families where children were raised as you describe. In the former, bad words were not taboo, and I've seen children literally troll their parents and make fun of them because a bad word escaped one of them at one moment. And that was all, no drama.

Don't take me wrong : I'm not upset, just debating .

Same here. You're fine.

And when I watch the French translation, it has been totally "unflavored", which I personnally regret, because I find the original much more entertaining .

I can see how that would be interesting to translate. The English word isn't used in the literal sense, and it has a lot of connotations which it would be difficult to match in translation. I'm sure you can suggest a better translation on whatever the website is called (I'm too much of a lazy... (I'll refrain from putting my bad jokes here) person to look it up).

[HurkWurk]

im of the belief that everyone should be exposed to, and learn to properly use vulgarities as the situation allows. im completely against casual censorship.
to me censoring is a last resort to prevent the point being lost, and is never done preemptively.

[Mooncat]

"Bastard" isn't a very bad word, considering there are many other words that are worse than it. But other than that, I did find that the name is hilariously impropriate because this achievement actually involves many, if not the most, manual works.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

If something could be taken as an offensive thing, it will be taken as an offensive thing.

As others have pointed out, "Bastard" is not that offensive of a word. Historically, there was discrimination based on whether or not you were a legitimate child (this probably still occurs today, but not nearly with such frequency in first world countries). Back then, Bastard was taken as an offense to you and your family, that society frowned on you, that your parents were fornicators. While many still believe that children should be born into wedlock, I doubt many would consider child born out of wedlock to be "less human". Hence, the term has lost much of it's sting.

However, I do believe that my home should be tranquil, devoid of vulgarity. My children and I deal with vulgarity enough outside the home that's there's no educational benefit for including it inside our household (except for the educational moments others have explained). Additionally, I feel that vulgarity disrupts the generally peaceful atmosphere of my home (barring the inevitable sibling rivalries). As such, media that includes such terms are left on the outside: If such media is to be sought, it is to be enjoyed elsewhere (which I have no quarrel with).

It's a hard, traditional position to take, but I bet there are others who generally frown on having explicit language media in their homes. The word "Bastard" doesn't offend me personally, but I could certainly see others taking some offense and not buy the game.

[SirSmuggler]

The word "Bastard" doesn't offend me personally, but I could certainly see others taking some offense and not buy the game.

I find the though of some one rejecting this game for the sole reason of the word "bastard" in one achivment, while having no problems with the constat murder of indigenous species, very amusing to say the least

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Eh, some things matter more, depending on the person. Some peeps are ok with Halo, but not Call of Duty, because of what is being killed. A better example would be that I am ok with gore, but not with sex scenes, whereas my wife is ok with the sex scenes, but not the gore.