Getting rid of alien artifacts is a bad idea

[AlexanderIron]

Hello,

I think removing alien artifacts from the game is a huge mistake, one of the few that the devs have made in the year or so since I have been playing. Alien artifacts are an innovative concept to the game that basically made the aliens, while hostile, also a resource which needed to be "harvested" which was an innovative gameplay concept that drew me to the game. They also had to be harvested in a completely different way than any other resource in the game, making for a good gameplay change up. Because of their importance to the late game, alien artifacts gave some justification to the large amount of military hardware and research available in the game, giving you a good reason to research, build, and use it. This single change basically just makes aliens into just a nuisance, and largely eliminates the need for all the military hardware which makes up a large portion of the items you can build in the game.

I realize that alien artifacts had a problem in that people who just want to build could not obtain them, and that farming them in large enough quantities becomes a big chore, especially since combat itself has been not especially entertaining up until now. Hopefully the upcoming military rebalance will make combat more fun, but the problem of obtaining them automatically has been handled in a couple of mods in a manner which is fun and sticks with the factorio playloop. One mod which I enjoy makes biters themselves drop small alien artifacts which can then be crafted (requiring maybe 20 of them) into the normal ones. robots will automatically harvest the small artifacts so walls of turrets become an alien artifact resource gatherer. Another mod the alien bases sometimes reveal an alien goop patch which can be collected with a pumpjack like oil and can then be turned into the regular artifacts. This turns clearing bases into setting up small resource gathering outposts instead, another good gameplay mechanic. Having these three methods for obtaining artifact together makes for very entertaining gameplay, and eliminates any problems there were with alien artifacts for me.

Although I like that alien artifacts are currently required for high tier research, since the devs are adding way more research paths in the upcoming update, an alternative would be for them to be required for some subset of the research, military being the most obvious, since peaceful players don't need to research military. Making them a requirement to build some things which are not required in large quantities would also be a good compromise.

In summary, I think removing alien artifacts is against the spirit of the game, removes incentives for fighting and exploring, removes incentives to research and make most military items, and will make the gameplay experience a much drier affair. There were problems with artifacts in 0.14 but there are also solutions which are easy to implement and which largely solve any problems that exist, and retain this fun and innovative aspect to the game. While the addition of more research vials and paths is great, it is basically more of the same, not adding anything fundamentally different to the gameplay.

[quyxkh]

I don't know about full-on mistake, but I think it'll surely lessen the tristesse of having to kill and raze and pollute, and I agree it's one of the standout qualities of the mood the game sets.

[Ratzap]

I disagree just as strongly. This simply makes the alien warfare aspect completely optional. If anything it enhances the game my allowing people to choose whether they wish to simply build a factory or add a defense game element. Removing artifacts deletes the last vestige of coercing players to interact with aliens.

I'm certain that artifacts and other harvesting of aliens will be modded soon after release. That gives the choice for those who want them. In summary this change is all about choice and freedom, it is a good change.

[AlexanderIron]

umm... choice and freedom by eliminating half of the game you personally don't like doing? Would it be a step for choice and freedom if basebuilding was completely optional and you could only win the game by destroying biters? I think this is simply an overreaction to the combat experience being poor and having to do so much of it for the megabases that the devs like to make. There is room for some kind of balance.

[quyxkh]

I'd like to have "hatred" factors fed by pollution and nearby kills (especially spawner kills), that spread by contact with a positive-feedback loop possible, say hatred isn't communicable until it reaches a certain level, but the effect of pollution and nearby spawner kills goes up dramatically in areas with existing hatred. and straight alien-studies research (needing, natch, lots of alien artifacts) that allows making biters that don't already hate you too much hate you even less, eventually allowing you to domesticate and farm them for artifacts...

[Mehve]

Hello,

I think removing alien artifacts from the game is a huge mistake, one of the few that the devs have made in the year or so since I have been playing. Alien artifacts are an innovative concept to the game that basically made the aliens, while hostile, also a resource which needed to be "harvested" which was an innovative gameplay concept that drew me to the game. They also had to be harvested in a completely different way than any other resource in the game, making for a good gameplay change up. Because of their importance to the late game, alien artifacts gave some justification to the large amount of military hardware and research available in the game, giving you a good reason to research, build, and use it. This single change basically just makes aliens into just a nuisance, and largely eliminates the need for all the military hardware which makes up a large portion of the items you can build in the game.

I realize that alien artifacts had a problem in that people who just want to build could not obtain them, and that farming them in large enough quantities becomes a big chore, especially since combat itself has been not especially entertaining up until now. Hopefully the upcoming military rebalance will make combat more fun, but the problem of obtaining them automatically has been handled in a couple of mods in a manner which is fun and sticks with the factorio playloop. One mod which I enjoy makes biters themselves drop small alien artifacts which can then be crafted (requiring maybe 20 of them) into the normal ones. robots will automatically harvest the small artifacts so walls of turrets become an alien artifact resource gatherer. Another mod the alien bases sometimes reveal an alien goop patch which can be collected with a pumpjack like oil and can then be turned into the regular artifacts. This turns clearing bases into setting up small resource gathering outposts instead, another good gameplay mechanic. Having these three methods for obtaining artifact together makes for very entertaining gameplay, and eliminates any problems there were with alien artifacts for me.

Although I like that alien artifacts are currently required for high tier research, since the devs are adding way more research paths in the upcoming update, an alternative would be for them to be required for some subset of the research, military being the most obvious, since peaceful players don't need to research military. Making them a requirement to build some things which are not required in large quantities would also be a good compromise.

In summary, I think removing alien artifacts is against the spirit of the game, removes incentives for fighting and exploring, removes incentives to research and make most military items, and will make the gameplay experience a much drier affair. There were problems with artifacts in 0.14 but there are also solutions which are easy to implement and which largely solve any problems that exist, and retain this fun and innovative aspect to the game. While the addition of more research vials and paths is great, it is basically more of the same, not adding anything fundamentally different to the gameplay.

Going to have to disagree. The issues surrounding biters and combat are mostly independent of whether alien artifacts exist or not. I would argue that the "spirit of the game" is, and always has been, automation. Right now, you can't automate anything involving biters except static defenses, therefore things like alien harvesting and territory reclamation are actually divergences from the "spirit of the game". You can enjoy them, but they still represent a divergence. Furthermore, when your solutions for keeping this single item involve mods and revamps of certain game mechanics, that's not exactly an endorsement.

If you want the alien presence and combat to be more viable, you don't need artifacts to force the issue. A more robust AI that controls how they decide where to attack and expand, which forces the player to pay more attention to them (and their own pollution), would do far more to improve the alien experience than any special drops.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the upcoming artillery train addition, which I suspect will vastly improve the anti-biter automation aspect of the game.

[Daid]

In summary, I think removing alien artifacts is against the spirit of the game, removes incentives for fighting and exploring, removes incentives to research and make most military items, and will make the gameplay experience a much drier affair.

All depends on your map settings. Aliens still hold the most important resource of all. That is terrain. Terrain contains all other resources except for daylight. You need terrain to build your base on. Everything except oil runs dry eventually, so you need to secure more space before you run out.

[AlexanderIron]

If your only quibble is automation, I mentioned two methods of automation that are easily implementable and fit right into the game.

Edit - sorry responding to Mehve

[AlexanderIron]

All depends on your map settings. Aliens still hold the most important resource of all. That is terrain. Terrain contains all other resources except for daylight. You need terrain to build your base on. Everything except oil runs dry eventually, so you need to secure more space before you run out.

Except, depending on your maps settings, you don't need much territory. This is why RSO is the most popular mod.

[ChoMar]

I think removing the Artifacts is a great step forward.
They disrupted automation, they made it necessary to kill - now we just need some vanilla air-cleaners and we can even build a green factory.
Given End-Game, Turret Creep handled those nests pretty good, the artifacts were NOT a scarce resource, just an annoying one.
I wont miss them anyway, and for those that do, im SURE there will be mods.
I would really like to see the game getting more of PvP - for those that want combat - but thats way more difficult to balance than PvE; in essence, you need to give the factions a reason to go to war AND make it so that the first encounter isnt so devastating for one party that they immediately loose interest in continuing the game. Combine this with maybe offline protection etc... VERY difficult.
Were going to try anyway...

[Mehve]

If your only quibble is automation, I mentioned two methods of automation that are easily implementable and fit right into the game.

I don't really see how those add much. If you decide to have biters dropping artifacts, all you need to do is set up a small base within aggro range (but out of weapon range) of a small nest, and you have a source of Infinite artifacts. If you change things so that you need to clear the actual nest to reveal an "oil patch-like" alien resource, that's really not much different then dealing with biter nests on top of resource patches, which we already do currently.

I really think a revamp of biter expansion/aggression behaviour, (plus a possible revamp of pollution reduction options) is what is needed more than anything, in order to make the aliens more than just a footnote in the game.

[alexzzzz]

the artifacts were NOT a scarce resource, just an annoying one.

Indeed. In one of my previous games I had like 200-300k artifacts in the storage after completing The Great Perimeter Wall and securing the whole area. I had no idea what to do with all that treasure.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =676932482

[Azirphaeli]

"This is a game about automation[...]"
~The trailer.

You can't automate going out and hunting down alien spawners so you can research the end game stuff. Note how they automated rockets at the same time they tied rockets to a new science pack. Alien science broke the flow of the game, and flew in the face of the intended design. Getting rid of it was a good idea.

[steinio]

0.16 should get some AAI stuff for gathering ressources automated.

[ps666]

No it's not. I like the change!
I always play peaceful and cheated the stupid artifacts. The Best change for me!
Thank you, Factorio Team!

[MightyMooquack]

All depends on your map settings. Aliens still hold the most important resource of all. That is terrain. Terrain contains all other resources except for daylight. You need terrain to build your base on. Everything except oil runs dry eventually, so you need to secure more space before you run out.

I think this is exactly right. You have plenty of incentives to attack the aliens, even without the reward of alien artifacts: Acquiring new resource patches. Securing more territory to build in. Reducing the frequency with which they attack you.

I'm not sure I ever went out to collect alien artifacts for their own sake, but I always ended up with a huge collection of them anyway, purely from attacking the aliens for the routine reasons above. Removing the artifacts will have virtually no effect whatsoever on how I play the game.

[RoddyVR]

I liked fighting the bitters. What's more important, my wife liked watching me fight the bitters. Because it was a process she could easily understand even without ever playing the game, the rest of the game looks like a complete mystery to someone who doesnt play it. when i switched to the flamethrower at some point, she even got interested enough to play a game of her own (got to electric power and gave up).

But even for me, removing the artifacts is a GOOD idea. even while i was in kill-kill-kill mode, the artifacts were an annoyance. i'd kill a huge base, and have to wander over all of it again just to gather the completely useless (cause i had so many) artifacts. leaving them lying around just clashed with my OCD way too much. At one point i set out for a huge clearing/expansion run with an almost full inventory of ammo (flame and bullets and bots) but then had to go back to base when i still had over half left, cause the artifacts were no longer fitting. i was gathering stacks of artifacts faster then spengin stacks of amo.

For those that like being forced to defend and fight (like me) you wont even need a mod, just set the bitter settings higher on your games, and the bitters will do a perfectly fine job of being present in your game.
but for those that want peacefull megabases (which i wouldnt do, but can understand why some would like to), this is a great change.

Good job devs for making this change.

PS, i dont play with mods, but i've seen the mods the OP talks about, the one that leaves small artifacts when bitters die would make gathering artifacts automatable, but we'd also need something like "alien bullets or alien fuel" that was made from these artifacts to have a way of using ALL the artifacts that this sort of automation could give.

[Hannu]

I agree with you, that aliens should be important resource in the game. But Factorio is an automation game. There should be eventually way to automate fighting and artifact collection. If there are not, then it is better that artifacts are not needed. Fighting by hand will be boring very soon. More interesting fighting mechanics is not a good option, because every fighting will be boring soon. But I hope that there will be automated fighting in some future version, dlc or mod. I know that there are some mods already but they seem to be quite rudimentary. Probably sane fighting AI need so much computing power that it have to be programmed straight in game's C++ source instead of slow lua script.

[BenSeidel]

I agree,
the removal of alien artifacts is a step backwards as it removes any incentive you have to go out and kill them. While I do agree with the removal of the aliens in the research, allowing people to play the way that they want to. But once you have your wall up with lasers guarding it all, there is no reason what so ever to go out and kill them. From my perspective this is bad. Have them drop alien artifacts, but make it some bonus that is an optional part of the game, not a required part.

[pieppiep]

A way to automate collecting artifacts is to install the mod that makes the 'non-nests' drop the little artifacts and the mod that can mark those artifacts to 'deconstruct' from the ground.
Now place a circle with turrets around a nest so that the turrets can't shoot the nest but can shot the aliens than come out.
Finally place a roboport in the range for the artifacts.
This works even when the game is setup to be friendly.

My opinion about removing the artifacts from the game, I like the removal.
Most of the time I have to little or to much artifacts. When I have to much somehow I still don't like to just let them lay on the ground.