Quality Gating is flawed

[Balthazar]

I hate how legendary quality is locked behind all the science packs. I got really excited when i unlocked it at first and figured out how to do a good setup for it, but then realiced i cant actually make the best versions until i hit postgame, so what is the point?
I'm already limited in the types of items i can make until i get the higher tier, is me having legendary cars and stone furnaces really that gamebreaking?

• Tearing down and rebuilding quality production lines as new tiers unlock sucks. Adding more outputs and intermediates doesn't.

• Structure quality has near zero value, speed is a low value benefit outside of miners and pumpjacks. Why not improve pollution/power efficiency instead?

• Quality already have scaling systems in place, it doesn't need double dipping

I would like to instead see tech unlocks that allow quality crafts ONLY for items of a certain tech tier; red science quality, green science quality, blue science quality etc.

[FasterJump]

I've had some fun making 4 T1 (Q3) quality modules. Then I unlocked T2 modules (you don't need to visit planets for that) and I built my module setup with the machines intended for T3 module production, as a placeholder for now since I haven't researched T3 yet)

I've started saving uncommon/rare parts made early on and used it to build uncommon/rare weapons, modules, armor modules, space plateform gear (solar panels...), uncommon tank for larger grid size/HP/canon-quality.

I don't need legendary equipment early on, I prefer to work my way towards it as my game progresses. I don't need to use legendary burner inserter and furnaces. Just because it's possible doesn't need you should do it, quality belts exist too even though quality only increases their HP.

Faster assembling machines = less polition per item crafted, because machine pollution is per minute.

Ps: opinions and facts are different things

[EustaceCS]

I hate how legendary quality is locked behind all the science packs.

Wrong.

but then realiced i cant actually make the best versions until i hit postgame, so what is the point?

In early game, don't ask yourself how to make X thing of Y quality.
Ask yourself which X thing you can make out of Y quality resources.
P. S.

Quality Gating is wrong (fact)

Mhm. From same shelf with "make millions by investing into koйncoin crypto (not scam) (real)".

[Balthazar]

Can either of you explain why the current state of the game is better than what i am suggesting or are you too busy tone policing to discus the game on the discussion forum?

[EustaceCS]

I don't feel obliged to dismantle unjustified """"(fact)"""" thing.

too busy tone policing

Nor "tone policing" part.
I had a pretty shitty week, full of useless waiting and no less useless running trying to wrestle a set of documents from our local officials. A set of documents which we shouldn't have in the first place - but other officials insisted that we had to have these anyway. So... d'oh...
...what I'm leading to, I'm not using already-sunken mood to propagate negativity. I'm trying sticking with neutral tone and memes cut from "Ed, Edd and Eddy" (check these out, by the way. Some of these are literally begging to be added to this theme). Because it improves my mood too and helps other people feel better as well.
Contrary to slamming """"(fact)"""" label on random assumption then rolling with it, ignoring arguments aimed at foundation of this erroneous assumption.
Here, let me try again.

In early game, don't ask yourself how to make X thing of Y quality.
Ask yourself which X thing you can make out of Y quality resources.

As of explanation part... well... if, once in 20 years, anyone really cares about my real opinion... I'd prefer a text from one of my ex'es (including ex-coworkers) - but Factorio is fine too. So lo and behold... an opinion...

Usual automatization games are quite linear.
Be it Satisfactory or Stardew Valley - there are fixed set of choices.
Too fixed.
Pre-DLC Factorio is, in fact, RELATIVELY linear too. Although randomized map gen saves things a little, in the end it's still 1-3 "families" of optimized choices - and runner-up non-hardcore players trying to keep up with these choices on their own.

DLC spices things up by making things not-so-linear.
Yes, let's ignore few red flags pointing at Gleba still being shoehorned into roster of viable choices
Each planet offers a centerpiece theme and a handful of (quite loosely related IMHO) assotiated technologies, each of which is somewhat unique.
These technologies don't quite compete with each other, in the end the player can have them all, - but player have to prioritise.
And each choice in this (still quite finite) decisions tree matters alot for nearest 10-100 hours of gameplay
And that's without Quality in play.

Quality turns already-branching DLC decisions tree into a goldern FRACTAL.
Even with three midgame planets choice, it's a headache to evaluate.

Should I go for infinite Quality roll attempts?
Should I go for jackpot (read: Gleba) instead?
Should I go for recycling instead?
Would I want to invest my time into building Quality related infrastructure? For each of three cases - and then for endgame?
Would I fare well without other two choices in nearest 100 hours of playtime?
Should I commit into Quality, anyway? If I shouldn't - what am I losing? If I should - how seriously? For everything or for specific things? For which things in particular? How deep is a rabbit hole?
Should I stick with best grade things - or with whatever RNG blessed me with?
How can I tilt the RNG to my favour? With EACH/ANY of these three midgame planet choices? And what I gonna do next?
Maybe this specific item is worth getting with Quality? Any or best or specific Quality?
And how the hell am I supposed to get Coal (Rare) reliably? (<- this question is much more important than it looks)

The game is not about linear optimized choices from start to finish anymore.
Even if Quality is disabled - it's still affecting your decisions.
This is one of the best things a game mechanics could have.
And its implementation is quite reasonable in Factorio (if we'll take into account potential performance hits from OTHER implementations of interactions with Quality).

Worth mastering.
AND worth skipping. Which is still an official developers' position, right?
Either choice (and everything in between) is viable, either choice gives food for thought.
Neither gets into the way of actually playing the game.

[Balthazar]

I don't feel obliged to dismantle unjustified """"(fact)"""" thing.

Aaah thats what this was about. Changed the topic title, picture me bowing and scraping in front of you with tears streaming down my cheeks in a truly humbled display, my voice quivering with fear and regret as everyone claps for your victory.

NOONE IS ASKING FOR QUALITY TO BE REMOVED

I agree with your take on quality but it is completely besides the point; noone is going to want legendary stone or steel furnaces once they have the means to make them because you have foundries and electric smelters unlock later that are actually relevant. Rare modular armor is still worse than regular power armor and its easier to get to the regular power armor than to make the rare modular armor, much less than what a legendary modular armor would take, but a legendary modular armor would stay relevant for much longer unless you put in the effort to make quality power armor too. Having options in video games that are irrelevant do not actually add much to the game, especially when theres no reason they need to be irrelevant.

THE SUGGESTION IS TO ALLOW LEGENDARY ITEMS OF EARLY TECH BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTCLASSED LATER BY LEGENDARY END TECH ITEMS

This could be done by changing the techtree to unlock all quality levels for items researched with a certain tech level in stages:

• Red Tech Quality Crafting
• Green Tech Quality Crafting
• Blue Tech Quality Crafting
• Purple Tech Quality Crafting

Gradually unlocking tech levels:

1. • Red Tech Quality Crafting Rare
   • Red Tech Quality Crafting Epic
   • Red Tech Quality Crafting Legendary
2. • Green Tech Quality Crafting Rare
   • Green Tech Quality Crafting Epic
   • Green Tech Quality Crafting Legendary
3. • Blue Tech Quality Crafting Rare
   • Blue Tech Quality Crafting Epic
   • Blue Tech Quality Crafting Legendary

Or any combination of them also works. We both like your fractal, so why not expand it?

Destroying and rebuilding quality component production

Since you can't make legendary plates or gears any setup making these has to be changed once the new tiers are unlocked. This introduces three rebuild stages as quality tiers unlock, which is extremely excessive. If your component assembly simply adds new products the same way your factory normally expands this problem is eliminated. If rebuilds are needed it'll be because your plans change or you hit endgame and move to a much larger setup, not something the game forces you through.

[MeduSalem]

I hate how legendary quality is locked behind all the science packs.

Wrong.

Well, it is not wrong. Epic quality requires to go to Gleba because the tech needs the agriculture SP and Legendary requires to go to Aquilo and requires all the SPs from all planets. Otherwise you are stuck with Rare quality.

Because I have quite a lot of quality stuff the past 2 days and the best I got was Rare stuff. Because I have not been to Gleba yet. ^^

Unless you can get Epic/Legendary stuff from recycling regardless of the 2 tech unlocks because that I have not done as excessively yet because I only just moved to Fulgora.

[EustaceCS]

I hate how legendary quality is locked behind all the science packs.

Wrong.

Well, it is not wrong.

It is.

Promethium

science packs are not required.

[MeduSalem]

It is.

Promethium

science packs are not required.

But you need the Cryogenic one for Legendary. And that can only be made on Aquilo.

[computeraddict]

I'd have to run the numbers, but I suspect that the numbers of legendary t2 assemblers you can build with the resources required to unlock t3 assemblers is very small

[EustaceCS]

It is.

Promethium

science packs are not required.

But you need the Cryogenic one for Legendary. And that can only be made on Aquilo.

I appreciate the... how do you call it nowadays in neutral manner... spirit of competition manifested in these brave words.
I, however, still do not agree with this statement. Nor is the game itself.
Now, what else I've missed in this theme...

Since you can't make legendary plates or gears any setup making these has to be changed once the new tiers are unlocked. This introduces three rebuild stages as quality tiers unlock, which is extremely excessive.

Screenshot From 2024-10-27 18-46-36.png (533.95 KiB) Viewed 4497 times

Intended for another theme. But here it will be of more use.
You can designate Quality filters way ahead of schedule.
This simple trick offers 0 necessity to actually rebuild stuff in either case (current state of affairs vs proposed).

I agree with your take on quality but it is completely besides the point; noone is going to want legendary stone or steel furnaces once they have the means to make them because you have foundries and electric smelters unlock later that are actually relevant.

Legendary boilers are made from former. Space platforms can use some of the latter #thanksfreecarbon #burnburnburn .
Armor is a valid example - however, with enough determination it is possible to skim all the way up to Power Armor MK II tech so... ugh... it's more of a question if earlier armor techs are becoming too obsolete too soon.
If I'd actually had a fever fit to point at something and declare that its Legendary variant is unreasonable to get, it probably would be Space Platform Starter Packs.
Hub HP is a nonexistant bonus: you either pre-build asteroid-ready platform somewhere, wait until it gets first batches of ammo then move it to its destination - or you watch it nosediving in upper layers of atmosphere. . .
And the cost is slightly beyond reasonable.

[MeduSalem]

I appreciate the... how do you call it nowadays in neutral manner... spirit of competition manifested in these brave words.
I, however, still do not agree with this statement. Nor is the game itself.

Well, it does not matter whether you agree with the statement or not.

The game agrees with me because while toying around with quality yesterday on Nauvis as part of my preliminary tests regarding quality... by click mistake (didn't properly copy an inserter setting) I forgot to set a limitation on production. And then I left off for Fulgora which I spent most of my time today and didn't watch Nauvis too closely. Because of that I am now the proudly owner of 40k Green circuits with Uncommon quality. And a few thousand more with Rare quality. ^^

If it would be possible to get Epic or legendary without researching the corresponding techs that are locked behind the Gleba & Aquilo researches which require their respective science packs then by the factor 10 chance I am sure I would have gotten at least a few hundred Epics and a couple dozen Legendary circuits.

But I got no epics or legendaries.

So I don't know how you can say that the game does not agree with me. That it requires those researches for Epcis & Legendary to even appear is a reality.



But that said, I am not complaining about it. I have no problems with Epic & Legendary needing additional researches only available on those two planets.

Yet I can understand why other people might think that it is way too late to make any sense to them because they probably don't intend to play much further than Aquilo and finishing the game, while Legendary stuff is probably more something to work towards if you keep on playing the campaign for much longer.

[factorioioioio]

Gating Epic and Legendary behind late-game research is not fun. By the time I build legendary items, I have no time to actually use them since the game is pretty much done. I probably will just skip quality completely next time unless there is a mod that makes quality unlock all at the same time. Yes you can build factories with epic and legendary in mind even though you don't have it unlocked yet but once again there isn't that much time to actually use them making it not worth the effort.

Stop arguing over silly semantics because clearly you understand what OP is getting at and it is a valid point.

[SirSmuggler]

Gating Epic and Legendary behind late-game research is not fun. By the time I build legendary items, I have no time to actually use them since the game is pretty much done.

I think this highlights the issue. Different players have very different ideas of when the game is "done".
To some the game is over when you reach the "end screen" and there is no point continuing on that save.
To some the "end screen" is where the game begins, you finaly have all the tools unlocked and can begin building the "real" factory.

It's kind of imposible to "balance" the game just right for both types of players (and all types in between).

[BlueTemplar]

Yeah, how is this different from non-SA nuclear bomb / artillery / spidertron ?

[Stargateur]

I kind of agree, first it's unexpected, I was surprised when I found out it. Then, come on it's just not fun, popping a legendary out of luck is wonderful and if this happen early game it's even more fun. quality is gacha yes or not ? Specially lock legendary behind aquillo is SO LATE GAME. at the very least we should have it before aquillo (logically volcanus since fulgora unlock tier 3 quality modules and gleba epic, thus I still argue we should have all quality when we unlock quality).

BTW: imagine you have 4 module 2 quality. 8% quality, 10% of 10% of 10% of 8%... 0.008% come on, it's like a miracle, and if someone try to farm it it would cost him TONS of resources. there is no reason to gate legendary and epic quality. What limit it should be the resource you want to invest in it.

[mrvn]

I kind of agree, first it's unexpected, I was surprised when I found out it. Then, come on it's just not fun, popping a legendary out of luck is wonderful and if this happen early game it's even more fun. quality is gacha yes or not ? Specially lock legendary behind aquillo is SO LATE GAME. at the very least we should have it before aquillo (logically volcanus since fulgora unlock tier 3 quality modules and gleba epic, thus I still argue we should have all quality when we unlock quality).

BTW: imagine you have 4 module 2 quality. 8% quality, 10% of 10% of 10% of 8%... 0.008% come on, it's like a miracle, and if someone try to farm it it would cost him TONS of resources. there is no reason to gate legendary and epic quality. What limit it should be the resource you want to invest in it.

First I think you are thinking of quality the wrong way. When you do quality early the only investment of resources is the stuff you do get with quality. The 95-85% you do not get quality for simply keeps flowing through the factory the normal way and builds science packs or rocket parts or whatever.

The problem and complexity comes when you have a bunch of steel or provider chests full with rare advanced circuit boards. What ever are you going to do with them. I think quality without recycling simply doesn't work for all but a few items, probably not legendary or you do everything in quality in parallel to normal. Not such a bad idea given that quality science packs last longer. If you go that router and actually use up all the material that isn't the highest quality then the waste is 0. [Although FYI you get more benefit from productivity modules at the cost of a lot more power (where you can use them).]


Secondly you can use combinators and set recipe to build all levels of quality in the same machines. Even better with trains. Wait for a train load of rare copper cables and rare iron plates to be ready and send out 2 trains to fetch them. Then switch your circuit board factory over to rare circuit boards and let it go.

And as already mentioned you can always plan ahead:

quality.png (816.69 KiB) Viewed 2149 times

Wow, I just wipped that up in my last savegame as a demonstration and just got the Legendary Module achievement. Didn't even realize I had all the ingredients for it just lying around by now.


You say "10% of 10% of 10% of 8%... 0.008%" but that is not quite true. This is just a 3 step chain not showing the ingredients being made but you can see that an uncommon Q3 is not 10% of 10% of 10% but 10% + 10% + 10% or one third of all Q3 modules are uncommon. It does require some uncommon red and blue circuit boards and uncommon superconductors. But you get those with 10% too. The 10% of 10% of 10% only applies when you need to rise 3 quality levels in 3 steps with no do over. If you need to rise 5 levels to legendary with just these 3 steps it's 1% of 1%. Or one in 10000 Q3 modules.

But 20% of Q2 modules are uncommon and 10% of that is rare. The longer the chains get the higher the percentage of quality stuff gets. It's both multiplicative and additive. And then you can recycle to both go one step back and get another chance to raise the quality at the same time. For example if you need high quality steel then you start with the minors giving you iron ore, electric furnace for iron plate and steel. That's 3 chances to raise quality already. Then make steel chests out of it and recycle it. Another 2 chances added but now it costs you 75% of the steel. But hey, if you don't want to build low density structure with it then 25% recovered it better than nothing and 5% of that has a higher quality level than before.

So lets do some math. First off improve your quality modules. Legendary Q3 modules give 6.2% quality or 24.8% for 4 modules, not just 10%. Electric furnaces give 12.4% quality.

So for steel with large miners and electronic furnaces it's 0.248 + (1-0.248) * 0.124 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*0.124 = 0.422933248 ~= 42.3% uncommon or better steel plate.

Produce steel chest + recycle once: 0.248 + (1-0.248) * 0.124 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*0.124 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*0.248*0.25 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.248)*0.248*0.25 = 0.485616546869248 ~= 48.6%

Do it again: 0.248 + (1-0.248) * 0.124 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*0.124 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*0.248*0.25 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.248)*0.248*0.25 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.248)*(1-0.248)*0.248*0.25 + (1-0.248)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.124)*(1-0.248)*(1-0.248)*(1-0.248)*0.248*0.25 = 0.52106420311300322099 ~= 52.1%

It's over half of steel becomes uncommon or better And only half the iron resource cost. So it's more like 100% of the iron resources you mine becomes uncommon or better steel plate. It's not legendary steel but you get more uncommon than common steel.


Now if you look at e.g. the Legendary mech amor going from ore to amor then you have more than 3 steps. The longer each chain is the more chances you have to rise a level. So some ingredients will be easier to come by than others. And more importantly the ingredients will be something you can use for something else if you didn't get the required quality. If you stop looking at it as a 0.008% chance of getting a legendary amor at your first try and realize that you can build the ingredients for 125 armors at close to your 0.008% chance and build science packs or rocket parts with the 124 failed tries then suddenly that 125th try that gives you a legendary armor is not so expensive or even anything you worry about.

It's a huge number of resources you will need if you only build the armor. Like 200'000 iron ore gives you with your low 10% numbers:
- 18'000 uncommon + 2'000 rare iron plates
- 3'600 rare + 380 epic + 20 legendary circuit boards
- 702 epic + 94 legendary processing units.

You need 100 legendary processing units for the mech armor (last recipe only) so nearly there. And that is without any productivity bonus from foundries, Electromagnetic plants or productivity research. But as said the failures aren't wasted if you build something else with it. 200k iron ore is nothing overall.

PS: sorry, should have started with iron resources like with steel above, the minder give quality too. But you get the point. Game wide it's not that many resources.

[Stargateur]

You kind of prove my point, it's not impossible to get legendary if you WORK FOR IT. Even without recycler if you design a very good factory, that grind quality at every step possible, you will get good stuff overtime and you will be rewarded by quality stuff for few resources. But that my point, let reward the player for playing with quality. Right now except late game it's just gacha game and frustrating cause you can't have the luck to get legendary. And you have the feeling of washing resource cause you want the best aka legendary. Right now quality early game just feel punishing. Especially for casual to even veteran player, only the best will have the patience and the skill to grind quality early, and for what ? ok uncommun medium electric pole are better than sex, but I don't really feel grind few rare mining drill or few rare assembly machine is rewarding enough. If I go for quality I wish to be able to have legendary from start not have to wait aquillo... that really frustrating and unfun.

[mrvn]

You kind of prove my point, it's not impossible to get legendary if you WORK FOR IT. Even without recycler if you design a very good factory, that grind quality at every step possible, you will get good stuff overtime and you will be rewarded by quality stuff for few resources. But that my point, let reward the player for playing with quality. Right now except late game it's just gacha game and frustrating cause you can't have the luck to get legendary. And you have the feeling of washing resource cause you want the best aka legendary. Right now quality early game just feel punishing. Especially for casual to even veteran player, only the best will have the patience and the skill to grind quality early, and for what ? ok uncommun medium electric pole are better than sex, but I don't really feel grind few rare mining drill or few rare assembly machine is rewarding enough. If I go for quality I wish to be able to have legendary from start not have to wait aquillo... that really frustrating and unfun.

You don't need quality to play the game at all. In fact I don't recommend touching that stuff for your first game at all. It's purely a post win thing for people that want to attempt the scattered planet. I'm actually underwhelmed by it overall. The most use I've got out of quality so far is better accumulators on Fulgora because it saves space. And even those I just enjoyed getting them as a side product of building the science packs. No active hunt for them. I see it more as a status thing to have legendary stuff. So having it end game / post win doesn't feel bad to me.

Better armor? I hunted a few aliens on Nauvis at the start of the game, a handfull of nests on Gleba and one worm on Vulkanus. Only reason I even have armor is for the roboports.

Better turrets? Some more reach would be nice I though. But it's not like turrets on planets get any use if you watch your pollution cloud. And in space the asteroids come to you and it's just quantity over quality. You don't even use red ammo or explosive rockets.

Larger chest? Faster Assemblers? Just build more.

Better miners? I had to work hard to get the "resource patch exhausted" achievement.

More arms on the collector? Not really an issue. I get more asteroid chunks than I can use while in system. It's only the scattered planet where you run out of resources.

Now there is one thing I totally forgot to go for so far: Qluality productivity modules. Going from 10% or 25% per module is a huge step. Putting those in your rocket silo and biolabs would be a big increase in productivity. Grinding those might actually save resources in the end. Next game I play I will do quality just on green/red/blue circuit boards and those modules till I have enough for all biolabs and silos.

What do you really want to have better quality that you would use and not just show off?

[Stargateur]

Again you prove my point, you say "don't do quality at all" that a enormous failure from a design point of view. Again right now specially for beginner quality is punishing more than rewarding. (Don't get me wrong I LOVE quality overall I just really disagree to lock better quality tier to end game). Quality multiply by 5 items in game, it's a pain at start, but it's amazing once you have it. At least don't punish beginner and let them have the chance to hit a jackpot that will be fun, and let very good player try to design an early base that grind quality that will be fun to them. They is no reason to limit legendary and epic to aquillo cause you unlock new building that are better on gleba, vulcanus, fulgora and aquillo, so anyway if you go for megabase or very late game gameplay you will have to rebuild your factories anyway. So again, there is no reason to lock higher tier quality to aquillo and gleba.