Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

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jodokus31
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Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

I'm wondering, if there is a certain monitor technique, which is specially optimal for 60 FPS Factorio.

I'm currently playing on a Gigabyte M32U, IPS Panel, which has a low latency and some overdrive settings.
I have to use 60 Hz, because with 120Hz its stuttering and flashing slightly without improvement. With 60 Hz, it looks and feel very smooth.
Graphics card is an AMD 7900XTX, which is of course overkill, but I'm also playing different games. Before I had an NVIDIA 3060, which was not different for Factorio.

But especially, when I'm moving, it gets a bit blurry. I can activate a very aggressive overdrive setting, which shows the entities more defined, but image quality get very noticeably bad. With overdrive settings on "balanced" or "smart OD" it looks the best.

As I'm running on Linux X11, I also recently checked with Windows on parallel installation and it behaves the same. There is no difference.

I was wondering about checking an OLED Panel, but read somewhere, that it won't improve this. Anybody has experience?

I also read someone using a plasma monitor, which has a great image on 60Hz. Anybody has experience?

I probably could use the GTTS mod and double the framerate, but I didn't want to go down that hole just yet. I try to explore solutions, without increasing the refreshrate.

EDIT:
Here's a sample recorded externally with my phone. Looks worse, than it really is, but you might get the idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqfjC0BHVjM
Last edited by jodokus31 on Sun Jun 09, 2024 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by computeraddict »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:16 am
Before I had an NVIDIA 3060, which was not different for Factorio.
Are you saying the Nvidia card had the same problem?

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

computeraddict wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:03 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:16 am
Before I had an NVIDIA 3060, which was not different for Factorio.
Are you saying the Nvidia card had the same problem?
I can't say 100% anymore, but I remember, that it was rather worse with the NVIDIA due to some slight stuttering in the Linux X11 environment

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

I added a video to the description, showing how it looks, when recorded with my phone

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by r3nt5ch3r »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:16 am
I have to use 60 Hz, because with 120Hz its stuttering and flashing slightly without improvement.
More Hz is always better: https://blurbusters.com/persistence-vs-motion-blur/

Why is stuttering and flashing? Do you have VRR enabled? Try without VRR so your Monitor can run at max Hz (not coupled to Factorio 60 fps). This might result in screen tearing; choose your poison.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

r3nt5ch3r wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:29 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:16 am
I have to use 60 Hz, because with 120Hz its stuttering and flashing slightly without improvement.
More Hz is always better: https://blurbusters.com/persistence-vs-motion-blur/

Why is stuttering and flashing? Do you have VRR enabled? Try without VRR so your Monitor can run at max Hz (not coupled to Factorio 60 fps). This might result in screen tearing; choose your poison.
The image itself doesn't get less blurry with 120 Hz. Only thing what happens is, that it gets a bit stuttery due to whatever.
I tried with disabled VRR, but no difference.
I understood, Factorio delivers 60 FPS. With 120Hz you just get 2 similar frames. If Factorio would insert a black frame instead, it might help (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103028)

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by r3nt5ch3r »

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:34 am
The image itself doesn't get less blurry with 120 Hz.
It should be, as the pixels in the panel are refreshing more often (doesn't matter if it's the same frame of the game). See photos here:
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... test_22296

Response times 144 Hz vs 60 Hz:
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... #test_1427
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... test_22354

Running with VRR off@144Hz, Overdrive Setting "Balance" should be your best bet according to rtings.
jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:34 am
If Factorio would insert a black frame instead, it might help
Your monitor supports Black Frame Insertion (BFI) / Backlight Strobing (BFI).
Give it a try again @144Hz on how the perceived visuals are.
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... #test_4262

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

r3nt5ch3r wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:12 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:34 am
The image itself doesn't get less blurry with 120 Hz.
It should be, as the pixels in the panel are refreshing more often (doesn't matter if it's the same frame of the game). See photos here:
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... test_22296

Response times 144 Hz vs 60 Hz:
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... #test_1427
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... test_22354

Running with VRR off@144Hz, Overdrive Setting "Balance" should be your best bet according to rtings.
jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:34 am
If Factorio would insert a black frame instead, it might help
Your monitor supports Black Frame Insertion (BFI) / Backlight Strobing (BFI).
Give it a try again @144Hz on how the perceived visuals are.
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... #test_4262
Thanks for these infos. Didn't know, that this "Aim Stabilizer" thing is BFI. I tried it, too.
The problem is, that every option just looks worse. With BFI it looks like that the image gets doubled with slight offset, so it doesn't really help.
144 Hz just looks very jittery. 120 is a bit better.
Best result is still 60 Hz.

Maybe I should look to get a monitor with a good Motion blur prevention?
https://blurbusters.com/faq/120hz-monitors/
Although, this list seems older.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

I'm really interested, if other people have similar problems.
It seems to me, that it's rather normal on LCD panels.
There are obviously LCD monitors which have like 240 Hz and insert a blackframe or two to simulate a CRT monitor.
There are also those new OLED panels with 240 Hz, which seems to have less more blur without the need to insert black frames.

Does anybody has experience with those new 240 Hz OLEDs?

The best image I got so far is, when using GTTS with 120 Hz, but it would require to run 120 UPS, too. Additionally screw up numbers and fluids to some degree. Not sure, if I want to dip in that hole.
Obviously, the best would be, if Factorio simply supports 120 Hz animation speed with 60 UPS, but that seems to be off the table for the devs.

Alternatively, it seems, you can do Frame generation to get to 120 Hz, but there's no good option on Linux systems so far. On Windows, it might works via LosslessScaling Steam app or AFMF on AMD cards.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by Rseding91 »

As nice as > 60 hz monitors look the fact they require games to run at or above those frame rates as well just isn’t viable for the vast vast majority of games and computers out there. Games struggle to even keep 60 FPS. Asking them to double, triple, and or quadruple their GPU and or CPU load is just never going to work.

Then you get consoles that struggle to keep 30 FPS…

Unless some magic happens I’m sticking to 60hz monitors.
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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

Rseding91 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:28 pm
As nice as > 60 hz monitors look the fact they require games to run at or above those frame rates as well just isn’t viable for the vast vast majority of games and computers out there. Games struggle to even keep 60 FPS. Asking them to double, triple, and or quadruple their GPU and or CPU load is just never going to work.

Then you get consoles that struggle to keep 30 FPS…

Unless some magic happens I’m sticking to 60hz monitors.
Surely, I don't want to run the game at 120 UPS and basically half the size of my potential base.
Some people say, that the human eye can't see differences above 60 Hz, but I think it's rather 75-90?
Console gaming with 30 FPS seems to get more popular, because the console hardware is too weak

The problem seems to be with the way LCD display is able to display those 60 Hz with some inherent blur, because the imagine remains longer on the screen with this technique. A CRT monitor would be a lot more clear at 60 Hz (although I remember, that I was happy when I switched to 75Hz CRT 20-25 years ago due to flickering)
Running the game with GTTS at 120 Hz was quite an eye opener to me.

The only thing, I could imagine is to double animation speed, maybe with some frame generation, maybe even in the engine, because the animation itself is probably not super taxing on the hardware. Not sure, if 120 Hz with every other frame is black (BFI) would really give good results. At least on my monitor with the BFI function it looked awful, but that just might be the bad implementation of my monitor.

I mean, I'm complaining on a high level as I am playing this game like this for 7 years. I was just wondering, if there were any better solutions, which is better for my eyes and brain

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by Tertius »

Rseding91 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:28 pm
Then you get consoles that struggle to keep 30 FPS…

Unless some magic happens I’m sticking to 60hz monitors.
PC gaming is done with a large variety of hardware. Some older laptop with iGPU struggles with 30 FPS, but there's also the gaming desktop PC that's able to run demanding games like Baldur's Gate 3 with 90 fps (mine). Look into the Steam hardware survey. Such PCs are not rare, they belong to the higher tier of the mainstream. It's worth in my opinion to design a game for fps above 60.

I cannot believe you never tried higher Hz than 60. It's perceivable better quality. Everything appears sharper, more stable. It's not just a marketing thing for first person shooter players, it's even visible with the Windows desktop. If you worked with a 120 or 144 Hz monitor for a month and have to go back to a 60 Hz monitor, you will regret it and want the faster monitor back. Even if you just did office work.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

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jodokus31 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:03 pm
Does anybody has experience with those new 240 Hz OLEDs?
I happen to : my 14 years old IPS screen died abruptly, and the best fit to my needs I could find happens to be a 240 Hz OLED. Wasn't in my requirements list though, I don't care anything above 60 Hz. I can see a difference when I'm not playing, if I try to move a window, the text remains very readable while moving the window at 240 Hz, whereas it gets blurry at 60. Apart from that, and especially in games, I failed to notice any difference yet - and I don't think I ever will.
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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by FuryoftheStars »

I'm not sure how valuable my opinion on this matter is as I know I'm different.

I have a 4 year old MVA panel monitor. On HDMI, it only does 55 Hz, and 100 Hz with DP. I used to use the HDMI until the port loosened up, then I switched to the DP port. For me, even playing FPS games, I don't notice a difference.

I recently tried out a new 165 Hz VA monitor with response times like an IPS, as well as a 175 Hz QD OLED monitor. Both had great picture and what have you, but had other mechanical or technical things about them that made them unsuitable for me personally.

During the short time that I had them, I did feel as though they were "better" regarding what you're looking at, but honestly for me, I think I hardly noticed, so the other issues with them were enough for me to send them back and ultimately stick with my MVA for another few years.
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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:21 am
I recently tried out a new 165 Hz VA monitor with response times like an IPS, as well as a 175 Hz QD OLED monitor. Both had great picture and what have you, but had other mechanical or technical things about them that made them unsuitable for me personally.

During the short time that I had them, I did feel as though they were "better" regarding what you're looking at, but honestly for me, I think I hardly noticed, so the other issues with them were enough for me to send them back and ultimately stick with my MVA for another few years.
I also have an older (~10 years) 60Hz IPS, 1440p and I can't say, that my Gigabyte M32U is any better at 60 Hz, except higher resolution. But it also seems, that the LCD technology isn't able to produce great motion clarity, because of the Sample-and-Hold tech.

This guy rants about the new OLED TV and says, that Plasma had better motion resolution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCi4SOAZcoM

It seems, that offering higher Hz is rather a bandaid to the Sample and Hold problematic.

f.e. at 240 Hz with BFI, you take the 60 Hz signal and display it on 1 frame, and then insert 3 black frames.
The image gets a lot darker of course, but the image only stays only ~4ms on the screen instead of ~16,6ms. They call it persistence
This is more like the Plasma acts.

If your application would provide 240 Hz frames, you can display all frames at ~4ms long and have similar clarity, but that's taxing on the GPU/CPU

Or frame generation generates some inbetween frames with interpolation. This also adds to the input latency.

Anyway, I think, there is more too come and I probably stay on my monitor for now.

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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by FuryoftheStars »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:30 am
This guy rants about the new OLED TV and says, that Plasma had better motion resolution:
What I do know about motion (second hand, mind you) is that some things like Anime do not display/play well on OLED. Something about the response time makes it into a stop & go production (I'm not sure how to better describe it).

Anyway, depending on where you live / what you have available for online stores, you could potentially do what I did and order a new monitor, try it out, and if you don't love it, send it back. I ultimately didn't have to pay a dime for the ones I tried as shipping both ways was free via NewEgg.
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Re: Optimal Monitor for Factorio (avoid blur when moving)

Post by jodokus31 »

I think, I found an ok-ish solution.

I can use 120 Hz + Overdrive to Performance mode and without BFI.
This also looks much less awful than 60 Hz + Overdrive Performance and is slighter snappier and clearer than 60 Hz + Overdrive Balanced.

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