Starting on a small isle?? Read this before you post!

[ssilk]

There have been several issues, that your character spawns at a small isle. No way to the continent....

This is not a bug!

This issue scraps the definition of a bug: It won't enable you to play, but it's so soon in the game, that it is obvious: You need just to restart the map.

The problem with this issue is: How should it be solved? Should the developers add a boat? Bridges? Or should the map-generator be changed, so that he doesn't create such start-positions? There is no good answer yet. But it is obviously very important to add more game content!

So: Sorry for the inconvenience! This issue is of course on the todo-list of the developers and will be fixed at some time; till then we (the players) need to live with it.

For more information see this threads:
- https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =23&t=2941
- https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =23&t=2142
- https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =23&t=2690

[muzzy]

I'd kinda call it a bug anyway, since the result is unexpected and certainly unintended and undesired. That makes it a flaw, a fault, an issue, and by certain definitions "a bug" - even if it's doing exactly what it's currently supposed to do (randomized map, no validation)

However, the bug isn't that you start on an isle, the bug is that your starting conditions prevent you from playing the game. Plenty of different approaches to fixing that, some of which involve not touching the map generation at all (for example, let the player swim and introduce swimming/flying enemies so this can't be abused)

[ssilk]

Yeah, all that already discussed. Good to repeat it here.

[Nova]

This is a bug. Just by definition. Maybe it's an accepted / tolerated bug, but it is a bug.

The problem with this issue is: How should it be solved? Should the developers add a boat? Bridges? Or should the map-generator be changed, so that he doesn't create such start-positions? There is no good answer yet. But it is obviously very important to add more game content!

What the...? What kind of question is that? Of course has the map generator to be changed, that answer is clear as it can be. Building a boat or bridge? With which materials? Maybe wood, but do we want such a simple way to cross water? Swimming has a whole bunch of other problems.
What has game content to do with that?

[ssilk]

What the...? What kind of question is that? Of course has the map generator to be changed, that answer is clear as it can be.

Well, this is the problem: the principle of map generation doesn't currently guarantee that you generate a map without a lake around you. Some players managed to see that after they played 7 and more hours. And any change to the map generation changes also it's determinism.

Building a boat or bridge? With which materials? Maybe wood, but do we want such a simple way to cross water? Swimming has a whole bunch of other problems.
What has game content to do with that?

The problem is, that at the actual state it is - I estimate - just some hours to add a boat to the game (if you have the pure rendered graphics ready), but it takes much longer (weeks? Month?) to bring the map generator in a state, where he delivers maps, that hit your criteria of being a "nice map". And there is no way around it: it will take longer to generate the map then, because of those checks.

Thinking also to needs like symmetrical maps, where you play together/against (multiplayer) and some other stuff, it is my deepest opinion, that it makes no sense to make the map generator following some more or less special rules to force it in end effect to generate a landscape, which significantly looks different to the rest.

Instead it makes much sense to enable the player to handle every situation with the map or whatever by using game elements. Like bridges or like a boat. You ask how I can have a boat? Add two wood to the inventory. Or guarantee, that every island has minimum two trees on it. It's a secondary question.

And it is much more gameplay, if the editor is enhanced, so that you can generate cool maps on your own, or add scenarios, which guarantees that you don't start on an island.

[Dark]

There is a quite simple solution which involves zero changes to map generator - after has been map generated check that we are not Crusoe and regenerate map again automatically, or at least tell the user that he is going to spend the rest of the game with "Friday" (If he manages to find one), this can be even done with a mod, just check titles around spawn +3-5 chunks aways.

[ssilk]

Well, a good solution for this special case. Yes a requester can open and asks you to regenerate the map.

Not a general solution: Even searching 10 chunks away it can happen, that we are just on an island.

[Dark]

A general solution is too expensive to implement right now, the "special-case" solution gets rid of 90% of problems, not so special I can say.
There are two main problems with map generation:
1. Starting on 2 tile long island. (rare)
2. Starting area is completely surrounded by water (very common, happens several times in a row).
The proposed solution gets rid from both of em.

And there comes the special case - you found yourself on small continent (5-10 times size of starting area) after few hours of exploration, surrounded by water again. Never seen this one personally, so - extremely rare for me.
This case is not as so fatal or boring as two above, starting area can never even have a biter nest.

[ssilk]

General solution: Add a boat in the inventory and the ability to built a boat.

[therapist]

I understand that the engine can't just check 10 tiles away, but is it possible to use the bugs pathfinding AI to fix this problem? Run a sort of "ghost bug" check upon map generation to see if the nearest bug nest can reach the player and maybe the second and third nearest nests as well? If these nests can't be reached, or rather, these nests cannot properly path to the player, this could cause the game to display the "You have landed quite unfortunate, doomed on an island. Regenerate map Y/N?" message that others have suggested before, or the game could move the player to the nearest shore and run the check again.

Maybe the pathfinding AI isn't developed enough to exhibit this function yet, and the solution will be fixed in map generation, but as others have argued generating maps where the player is on an island might be a natural part of map generation and not a bug at all. The bug seems to be not letting new players know how/why they are doomed or giving them any option to get off the island.

[roothorick]

I understand that the engine can't just check 10 tiles away, but is it possible to use the bugs pathfinding AI to fix this problem? Run a sort of "ghost bug" check upon map generation to see if the nearest bug nest can reach the player and maybe the second and third nearest nests as well? If these nests can't be reached, or rather, these nests cannot properly path to the player, this could cause the game to display the "You have landed quite unfortunate, doomed on an island. Regenerate map Y/N?" message that others have suggested before, or the game could move the player to the nearest shore and run the check again.

Maybe the pathfinding AI isn't developed enough to exhibit this function yet, and the solution will be fixed in map generation, but as others have argued generating maps where the player is on an island might be a natural part of map generation and not a bug at all. The bug seems to be not letting new players know how/why they are doomed or giving them any option to get off the island.

Better:

Attempt to pathfind from the player to chunks that have not been generated yet (preferably in order of "shortest path first"). Generate those chunks. Continue until one each of: tree, coal, iron, stone, copper, oil, and biter spawner, has been generated in a location that can be reached from the player (special check). If no further chunks can be reached, and not all deposit types have been reached, relocate the player to a chunk that has not been generated yet (and is therefore unreachable from his original position), and restart from the beginning.

I think it's a good compromise: you can wind up on an island with limited resources, but you're guaranteed to have at least SOME of every raw resource (and probably a reasonable amount of space), so you're not completely locked out of part of the tech tree with no recourse.

[cube]

Attempt to pathfind from the player to chunks that have not been generated yet (preferably in order of "shortest path first"). Generate those chunks. Continue until one each of: tree, coal, iron, stone, copper, oil, and biter spawner, has been generated in a location that can be reached from the player (special check). If no further chunks can be reached, and not all deposit types have been reached, relocate the player to a chunk that has not been generated yet (and is therefore unreachable from his original position), and restart from the beginning.

I think it's a good compromise: you can wind up on an island with limited resources, but you're guaranteed to have at least SOME of every raw resource (and probably a reasonable amount of space), so you're not completely locked out of part of the tech tree with no recourse.

We were already discussing something simillar some time ago, basically a mechanism that would separately ensure that there is an exact number of resources in the starting area and that the starting area is in a part of the world with average terrain height (not in the middle of the sea or on the top of a mountain).
But it has kinda low priority.... probably will get into the game sooner or later, though.

[ssilk]

I want to point also to this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... der#p40483

[Rakasch]

A game start on a paraglider sound great, only you have to start the flight high up in the sky, to find some useful land.

Starting on an island isn't the worst that can happen:
Right now I startet as reincarnation of Jusus, standing on the water in the middle of nowhere. There wasn't any land in sight.
I would call this a bug.

[cpy]

Hmm ability to swim, some water resources (probably oil/gas), water creeps, ships, this game have really insanely high potential.

[psihius]

I say add ability to make a basic boat, so people can actually play maps like these and expand over the water if they want (because it's fun to move the base to mainland and keep the old base as a fallback and resource stash). At least this should be relatively easy. Adding more water related content is the ultimate solution - I would like a powered boat and a transporting ship, just like there are trains (it should be relatively big and have a lot of space, so you need a big body of water to use it). And balance the speed - big ships are slow, but have a ton of capacity. Smaller boats have less space, can not be automated (maybe) like a car is in the game now.

I would really like the basic boat ASAP, because it opens a lot of possibilities. And wait for other water stuff as long as needed.

[Asakari]

Maybe the starting Position cannot be within a square where water is, maybe 10x10. It is a one time check . if the check find water, just make an automatic restart. Only when use random maps.

Try this map, werry funny.

>>>AAALABYAAAADAwYAAAAJAAAAYWxpZW4tb3JlAwMCBAAAAGNvYWwD
AwIKAAAAY29wcGVyLW9yZQMDAgkAAABjcnVkZS1vaWwDAwIIAAAAaXJ
vbi1vcmUDAwIFAAAAc3RvbmUDAwLHLaVpLnAAABUyAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MANg8I1A==<<<

If nessesary : 0.11.22 (Build 14011, win64)

Have fun

[British_Petroleum]

Hmm ability to swim, some water resources (probably oil/gas), water creeps, ships, this game have really insanely high potential.

+1

[RedScourge]

Obviously a boat needs to be added to the game. The question then becomes whether or not to give the player a boat at the start. I think that is a bit of a lazy solution.

Therefore, before placing the player on the map, the biter pathfinding AI should be used to see if there is a path between the player and a tree. If yes, then do nothing, if no, then use a standard spiral search pattern to place the player 10 chunks away and repeat this process again. If it is necessary that the player must start at origin coordinates, either you have to spawn a new map, or have the ability to offset either the coordinates to the new origin, or add the ability to have the player not always start at the origin. Perhaps another check could be added: if the pathfinding AI cannot find a way to get to the nearest enemy spawner (i.e. player is on a medium island or smaller), then rather than giving the player a random hint on start, the first hint given to the player at the start of the game be a hint on how to create a boat. This would decrease the chance that the player chops down all the trees on their island before they think to make a boat.

In one of my first maps, a spawner was created on an island in the middle of a large lake, and my base surrounds the lake. The result is that my logistics robots occasionally get shot down when crossing the lake directly. I cannot reach this lake and kill the spawner, so a boat would be great!

[AyrA]

Precondition
Use this map string

Code: Select all

>>>AAAMAA8AAAADAwYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAMDAgoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMCCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMDAgoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAQAACAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAwMCBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCq4L0sHYyAAD4aQAAAAAAAAAAAA
AFAEAlDj4=<<<

Problem
This map exchange string will create an unusable map. It was randomly generated by factorio when creating a new game. I think this generates the smallest possible land you can have in the game and is quite hilarious. You can't die, but also you can't win.

Reproducible
Yes

Possible solutions
Add a simple A* path finder to the game. The provided wiki link has pseudocode included.
Use the algorithm to check, if the player can reach at least 10'000 items (not map squares) of all basic resources(coal, stone, copper, iron, oil, alien base), except if he has disabled one of these of course.
If not enough resources are found, use the next seed available. (seed+1).

The number of items to search can be increased to the number of items needed to complete the game objective to ensure a map is guaranteed to be solved. Another cheap method would be to ensure, that a water body cannot 'touch itself'. This would also remove islands, which are unuseable at the moment.