[0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Things that has been reported already before.
Qon
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[0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

Terrain segmentation is very high no matter what setting I use for it. Get the similar terrain with very high and very low. I would like some low/very low segmention for my new 0.13 map with big pieces of land and water so that I can build my next big base.
Picture of very low segmentation
I also want some details on the map generator. Is only resource generation changed? Or will same seed also generate different water and desert bodies now (ignoring the terrain segmentation bug)? How does resource richness scale with distance? Is it linear?

Loewchen
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Loewchen »

I can confirm that this map was produced with the settings stated above and that those settings produce similar maps in general. The small lakes seem to be limited to the starting area.

Qon
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

Loewchen wrote:The small lakes seem to be limited to the starting area.
Is terrain segmentation linked to distance from starting area? That's pretty cool, I would request that otherwise q:
But I think it should be optional...
Map N Crash
New Picture: This is a bit further away. The the lake in the north is definitly not "Very low segmentation" sized. In that case it would be many thousand times bigger and not really something I would want to walk around. Are they even bigger further north?

Managed to crash while looking at map and autosaving.
Attachments
factorio-previous.log
Think this one is related to a crash during the restart required from game update, but not sure. Included anyway if you like these logs.
(15.21 KiB) Downloaded 49 times
factorio-current.log
I think this is the one pictured in the ss.
(8.31 KiB) Downloaded 47 times

Loewchen
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Loewchen »

Please open a new report for the crash.

Qon
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

Loewchen wrote:Please open a new report for the crash.
"the crash"
Which one? Both right?

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Mazian »

Very low terrain segmentation, very small water
Last edited by Mazian on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Qon
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

Mazian wrote:...
Maybe you should say something also? Just a picture doesn't really tell us much.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Mazian »

Qon wrote:
Mazian wrote:...
Maybe you should say something also? Just a picture doesn't really tell us much.
Still getting used to the bbcode -- the spoiler bbcode was supposed to say 'Very low terrain segmentation, very small water.'
Aside from adding that this bug appears repeatable on my end, which seems a redundant statement considering the screenshot, I don't have anything else to add.

In v0.12, "Terrain Segmentation Very Low" would result in the initial starting area usually being of a single terrain type and never segmented to the degree it does in v0.13.0 (experimental.)

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by ixnorp »

I tried generating some new maps right after release and couldn't get ones I liked the look of (mostly due to terrain segmentation and water distribution) but I didn't really give it much thought at the time. After seeing this thread I went and made myself a couple of maps with all of the settings as default except for
water: in starting area only
terrain segmentation: very low
height: 5000
width: 5000

One thing I immediately noticed is that water appears in small pools through out the map all the way to the edges. I also noticed that richness of Oil did not seem to be increasing with distance from the spawn. At approximately -2500,-2250 I was seeing oil at a richness of just 43% where as near by copper was up to 13k per square.

Wild speculation: I wonder if this is some how related to the alteration of the richness of resources algorithm which is accidentally increasing the frequency of water as well. Or perhaps all areas of the map are some how being considered the starting area.

Example save game with most of the map revealed, standing up near the top left corner of the map.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/963 ... 0-0130.zip

Qon
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

ixnorp wrote: I also noticed that richness of Oil did not seem to be increasing with distance from the spawn. At approximately -2500,-2250 I was seeing oil at a richness of just 43% where as near by copper was up to 13k per square.
This has been reported here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27228
So you can read dev responses on fixes to that issue when they get around to it.
So yeah another thing that completely stops my evil plan to pollute and take over the whole world ]:

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by ixnorp »

Qon wrote:
ixnorp wrote: I also noticed that richness of Oil did not seem to be increasing with distance from the spawn. At approximately -2500,-2250 I was seeing oil at a richness of just 43% where as near by copper was up to 13k per square.
This has been reported here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27228
So you can read dev responses on fixes to that issue when they get around to it.
So yeah another thing that completely stops my evil plan to pollute and take over the whole world ]:
Thanks for the link. I do note that the quantity of oil patches goes up significantly with distance from spawn which is perhaps what is actually intended rather than richness since oil can never be sucked dry fully and depletes rather quickly in my experience. Though I did see in the patch notes that Oil is supposed to last around twice as long per patch now. Even before 2500 units out from spawn I've run across patches with upwards of 20 wells in a cluster.

Stone, on the other hand, seems to be quite a bit less common than I recall it being. That can be tweaked by the map gen though so I guess it's not really an issue.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by scarhoof »

I can confirm this as well. I really hope this is a bug in the terrain gen that plans on getting fixed. In .12 you could set terrain segmentation to very low and more often than not get entire continents or maps that were a single biome. I want this feature back.

Right now, regardless of the setting, it seems that green biomes spawn around the outsides of the map, near the water, with deserts in the center. This makes every continent look basically the same and even within continents we get a ton of segmentation between smaller biomes. It just looks ugly and we lose any uniqueness between the biomes.

Below are five generations, all default other than the terrain segmentation. They are all using Seed 1. I then force explored a 512x512 area to showcase the differences. Last screenshot is a wider shot. Pretty much all continents look like this no matter the settings.
Pics

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Loewchen »

My problem with this is, that I simply don't know what "high" or "low" segmentation is supposed to mean. Anyway I think you made your case, lets wait for a response from the devs.

Qon
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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Qon »

Really good pictures @scarhoof, thanks.

So obviously low segmentation gives more big lakes than high, but it doesn't eliminate all the high segmenatation noise on land like it used to. So Low seg is a combo of low and high. And if you want to place a big blueprint you don't want a tiny speck of water puddle every other tile. Especially if you can't shift place blueprints on water and let robots remove water like trees and now also rocks. And now no setting gives you land that has low segmentation even if some water bodies are lowly segmented (but now as low as in 0.12).

I think It's ok if very low is combined with some low for water. Gives more interesting shapes to lakes, less round blobs. But mixing in very high segmentation with very low is just bad and is blatant disregard for the settings I chose.

The biomes are always highly segmented everywhere though in all screenshots.
Loewchen wrote:My problem with this is, that I simply don't know what "high" or "low" segmentation is supposed to mean. Anyway I think you made your case, lets wait for a response from the devs.
Segmentation is how much the terrain is divided in different segments, where a segment is a continous piece of the same biome or ground type. Low segmentation means fewer segments/area, so they are of course then also bigger or it wouldn't work out. :]

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Jj250 »

Qon wrote:Terrain segmentation is very high no matter what setting I use for it. Get the similar terrain with very high and very low. I would like some low/very low segmention for my new 0.13 map with big pieces of land and water so that I can build my next big base.
Picture of very low segmentation
I also want some details on the map generator. Is only resource generation changed? Or will same seed also generate different water and desert bodies now (ignoring the terrain segmentation bug)? How does resource richness scale with distance? Is it linear?
Thanks for posting this, pretty frustrating considering I almost exclusively play on Low/Very Low Terrain Segmentation. Hopefully they'll push a patch soon to fix a few of the minor issues with 0.13 like this one. Otherwise I'm very happy with the patch.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by ytsejam »

my first 0.13.0 map
Every single map setting on default (normal/medium/regular). I've posted this on the steam forums. It's like someone just took this map and wiped their *** with it. Lots of annoying small ponds in the starting area too.

Besides, there's the oil problem (I've read here it's been reported). You can see a handful of oil fields "nearby" and 2 big ones on the north edges. The biggest one, on northwest, has a huge enemy base sitting right on top of it, mocking me :/

I've only started this map on 0.13 so far. I decided to keep playing it, as a personal challenge. Hope they fixed it soon.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Align »

This also seems to produce a lot less trees than there used to be for me, presumably because there's "dry" biomes which don't allow trees to spawn everywhere, so pollution is more of an issue.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Jj250 »

Align wrote:This also seems to produce a lot less trees than there used to be for me, presumably because there's "dry" biomes which don't allow trees to spawn everywhere, so pollution is more of an issue.
Yep, lots of small "ponds" instead of large sprawling lakes and all the tiny biomes is just annoying.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by Jj250 »

I don't think it's been fixed for 13.1

Still testing, some maps it seems to work but if i mess with the settings on map generation it behaves strangely. Still testing.

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Re: [0.13.0] Terrain segmentation

Post by ytsejam »

Yeah, I checked the 0.13.1 changelog. Not fixed.

Not that you would need to check the log, just create a world on 0.13.1 using default settings. Same thing.
0.13.1
Resources look weird for a default map too. I got some oil around my starting area this time, but almost no coal and copper.

I just reverted back to 0.12.35 and use my 0.13.0 seed, just for fun. All settings at default, like always:
my 0.13.0 seed on 0.12.35
Finally, something that looks like a proper biome. Btw, I still didn't see anything that even resembles a desert in 0.13. I think I'll stay in 0.12.35 until this gets resolved. It's really annoying to play in such a mess of a map.
Last edited by ytsejam on Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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