Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

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scooter010
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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by scooter010 »

posila wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:24 am

I kind of don't understand what are you saying. Can you please define precisely rules for when the timer starts and when it stops in your ideal Factorio speedrunning rules?
Almost like described there. But I wouldn't allow to use/prepare a map seed. U can disable biters, cliffs und put all ressources to max. Then click through several seeds. The timer starts in the moment, when u start to generate the map preview. The timer starts over every time, when u create a new map preview, because the one before wasn't good enough.
If u have to transfer the map to a multiplayer-server: The timer pauses after pushing the "game-start" button. Then transfer the game to a multiplayer server within 5 or 10 minutes and the timer resumes on the first frame on map.

That would force u to adopt all of ur plans to the needs of the map. Otherwise u could be able to find the "perfect" map and "perfect" build-order by AI and thousands/millions of simulation-runs @2k ups/min on several instances and after that, just use a clickbot to present the result: Rocket launch within ~45min?

I don't want to say, that u did like this. But it's going this direction. This time, u automated map generation/selection. Next time, u will automate "generating" a map string. Then an AI will find the best arrangement of buildings, after that, the best build order. And in 2 or 3 years, the speedrunner hast just to follow a "click-order".

I can understand that speedrunners hate RNG, because the rsults are more difficult to compare. If u are luky, u could be faster then a "better" runner. But that is sports. All real-world sport-results are at least a little bit RNG depended (e.g. wind).

It would be something different, if that category forces everyone to use the same map-exchange-string.

Again, just my opinion. And I have the opinion, the the team did a great job and put a lot efford in that run.
V453000 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:58 am
scooter010 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:46 am
...If u want to speedrun an jump'n'run u cannot actually do the jumps before the run starts. But if u preplan a factorio game it is like u could do the jumps before the timer starts...
I'm actually pretty sure that's what for example Quake speedrunners do. Meticulous planning and doing math on exactly where to jump from where.
Yeah, of course, but they need to be skilled to "hit" the calculated points in the correct preplanned way. Sometimes (maybe not in quake but other games like that) u need "frameperfect" tricks. In conclusion, the quake-speedrun is also some kind of dexterity comparsion. In factorio it doesn't depend on frame perfect trick stuff or much other skill stuff (placing exactly 2 inserters (for smelters...) while running is the skill heaviest part). In Factorio, if u have a real good plan, give it to 8 random factorio players with arms and at least 500h-1000h hours gametime. I'm sure, they could fullfill the plan after exercising it 2 or 3 times. So, if th eplan is good enough, they would probably get the "crown" of best speedrunners.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by bobucles »

Sometimes people are just wrong on the internet. Don't worry, it happens. :lol:

Speedrunning is a very well established community and they have a good set of rules that apply well across games. Most issues between the rule sets are simply resolved by creating categories. For example, what's the deal with using a pre existing, preplanned map for factorio? That's nothing more fancy than a seeded run. What if someone hits the default map button? That's just a default settings game.

When there is very little practical difference between categories, it is generally better to settle on default game settings rather than creating your own snowflake category. If one of the game's default settings creates a very new and different speed running experience, there's nothing wrong with making a category for it. Just remember that some of the fun is taking up the challenge against other speed runners to beat their times, and that means joining in on their categories.

In general, speed runs DO NOT allow any modifications to the game data other than a 100% fresh vanilla install. You have to be able to walk up to a completely new computer, hit the install button, and start your speed run from that point. Therefore most newgame+ features are not allowed, and this includes features that carry in between games such as Factorio's blueprints. It's nothing personnel, it's merely a practical way to avoid conflicts and keep the experience open to as many people as possible. Some games do make an exception if you have to unlock something from a previous game to show off a really cool trick, but those typically end up as extras and not main game categories.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by posila »

scooter010 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:12 am
...
I don't speedrun any game (I don't even have achievement for finishing Factorio under 15 hours yet) ... but what you described sounds like rules for a category that could exist. I do think it would be more interesting if Any% category didn't allow custom seed, while Default Settings category did ... I feel like Default Settings category suffers from spending hours trying to roll a good map, while good maps would be much more common on Any% (simply due to smaller set of requirements for "good map"). But that's what I think after thinking about it for couple of minutes, there are probably some reasons I have not consider or maybe don't even know about simply due to not being part of speedrunner community.

Anyhow, I think you underestimate dexterity required to build manually fast ... just because somebody played the game for 1000 hours doesn't mean they'd be able to beat the game from start to finish fast just after couple of practice runs (because most likely they were building everyting using blueprints and bots for 950 hours). Believe me, I should know ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by Hiladdar »

Another interesting achievement might be launching a rocket, while ensuring pollution in no chunk exceeds a specific volume. Call it eco-friendly, environmental activist, nature lover, or something that means similar. There can be multiple levels of achievement. This will require the players to spread their factory out, shutter parts if pollution gets too high in an area to allow it to dissipate, while managing vanilla biters.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by scooter010 »

bobucles wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:47 pm
Sometimes people are just wrong on the internet. Don't worry, it happens. :lol:

Speedrunning is a very well established community and they have a good set of rules that apply well across games. Most issues between the rule sets are simply resolved by creating categories. For example, what's the deal with using a pre existing, preplanned map for factorio? That's nothing more fancy than a seeded run. What if someone hits the default map button? That's just a default settings game. [...]
If I'm stating my opinion, I can't be wrong, by definition. ;)
Of course, the community has it own rules. I just mentioned, that I don't like that rules for several reasons. Don't be offended, I'm glad u're happy within that community.
posila wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:15 pm
scooter010 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:12 am
...
I don't speedrun any game
Sry, I thought u were member of that team.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by bobucles »

I do think it would be more interesting if Any% category didn't allow custom seed, while Default Settings category did
The any% category tends to be more open and unrestricted. It may as well be called the "anything goes" category because the skips get SO crazy that their subcategories describe the skips they DON'T allow. How crazy can game shortcuts get? How about beating Ocarina of Time in less than 8 minutes?

The default category works that way partly because it follows the most clear cut intended first game experience. "Hit start, play" is about as default as it gets, and if the player needed to modify their game before hitting start it wouldn't be the default experience anymore. I suppose if you wanted the default category to come with a seeded RNG, you could always force the player to type in a seed before starting any new game. I don't think it's worth going that far just to mess with speed runners though! :lol:

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by TOGoS »

Speaking of tile transition collisions, has anyone ever tried to make "solid" tiles (representing, say, a rock), that is not traversable, but should be drawn in over other tiles, such as grass? I had been trying to make this work for a while but was running into quite a bit of trouble. Fish appearing on my mountains was one of the more amusing problems. I eventually said "screw it, I'll just make them entities", but I still think tiles would have been a nicer solution.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by conn11 »

Hiladdar wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:39 pm
Another interesting achievement might be launching a rocket, while ensuring pollution in no chunk exceeds a specific volume. Call it eco-friendly, environmental activist, nature lover, or something that means similar. There can be multiple levels of achievement. This will require the players to spread their factory out, shutter parts if pollution gets too high in an area to allow it to dissipate, while managing vanilla biters.

Hiladdar
What about the word for world is forrest or a little bit more mundane treehugger.

Interesting propisition.
Should exciding pollution in any chunk permanentes disabeling the achievement or should it only be conditon sine qua non at the Tine of the launch? The latter case would allow for various workarounds.

Another possibility: requiering the player polluting only a set amount of chunks, encouraging microbuilds.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by Klonan »

TOGoS wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:42 pm
Speaking of tile transition collisions, has anyone ever tried to make "solid" tiles (representing, say, a rock), that is not traversable, but should be drawn in over other tiles, such as grass? I had been trying to make this work for a while but was running into quite a bit of trouble. Fish appearing on my mountains was one of the more amusing problems. I eventually said "screw it, I'll just make them entities", but I still think tiles would have been a nicer solution.
Should be easy enough, just set the tile to have a bunch of collision mask, and probably layer 250 or something (so its transitions are above all others).
Most things would be blocked just by settings the collision mask of both "water-tile" and "ground-tile"

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record.

Post by EnerJi »

Please forgive me for giving my questions just a single bump on this thread:
EnerJi wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:43 pm
Slightly OT, are there any plans to update the table of 'things remaining before 1.0' a la this prior FFF:

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-282

I find it very interesting to be able to view progress at a high level like that even when a certain area is not the subject of the current FFF.

Separately, can anyone tell me whether the blueprint improvements have landed in 0.18? I was planning to hold off until 0.18 reaches stable, but I could be tempted to upgrade to experimental if blueprints are massively improved. I'm finally at a point where I have lots of robots and can really leverage blueprints, and I really am struggling with how to use them effectively.

I'm sure I could figure them out, eventually, but I almost feel like it's not worth my time given the planned blueprint improvements.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record.

Post by Klonan »

EnerJi wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Please forgive me for giving my questions just a single bump on this thread:
EnerJi wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:43 pm
Slightly OT, are there any plans to update the table of 'things remaining before 1.0' a la this prior FFF:

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-282
If there is something meaningful to say about the plan, we will provide an update,
For now we are just working through what we have said in this FFF: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-331

So each week you get an update on a specific topic, I don't see the need to consistently reiterate the plan/progress when it can be quite easily deduced from the state of the game and the recent posts.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record.

Post by EnerJi »

Klonan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:53 pm
EnerJi wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Please forgive me for giving my questions just a single bump on this thread:
EnerJi wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:43 pm
Slightly OT, are there any plans to update the table of 'things remaining before 1.0' a la this prior FFF:

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-282
If there is something meaningful to say about the plan, we will provide an update,
For now we are just working through what we have said in this FFF: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-331

So each week you get an update on a specific topic, I don't see the need to consistently reiterate the plan/progress when it can be quite easily deduced from the state of the game and the recent posts.
That's fair enough. I just quite like the visual style of the table, and in other games that are in development it's quite fun to see progress of individual items even if they are not necessarily the subject of a particular FFF.

Anyway, not a big deal. I'm looking forward to seeing the blueprint improvements and the eventual release of a stable version of 0.18.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by republikanen »

So where do I find this "World record speedrun timer". I have been searching for it several times on mods.factorio.com and speedrun.com but without any success.

Is the speedrun timer a mod that I can download?

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by DanGio »

republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:40 am
So where do I find this "World record speedrun timer". I have been searching for it several times on mods.factorio.com and speedrun.com but without any success.

Is the speedrun timer a mod that I can download?
The timer you see on the top left corner is a separate software called LiveSplit that you can find online.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by republikanen »

DanGio wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:57 am
republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:40 am
So where do I find this "World record speedrun timer". I have been searching for it several times on mods.factorio.com and speedrun.com but without any success.

Is the speedrun timer a mod that I can download?
The timer you see on the top left corner is a separate software called LiveSplit that you can find online.
It looks like only windows is supported. Is there a mac version?

How does an external program get events from the factorio game so it knows when to split?

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by Koub »

republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am
How does an external program get events from the factorio game so it knows when to split?
https://livesplit.org/faq/
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by Bilka »

republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am
How does an external program get events from the factorio game so it knows when to split?
The runner needs to make the splits (= press the split key), Factorio does not have an autosplitter.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by republikanen »

Bilka wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:45 am
republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am
How does an external program get events from the factorio game so it knows when to split?
The runner needs to make the splits (= press the split key), Factorio does not have an autosplitter.
I guess that there is no technical issue with creating a factorio mod, that times a speed run the same way (in real time regardless of single player or not) and that have time splitters displayed the same way as LiveSplit does?

If so, also I as a mac user could use it.

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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by Koub »

republikanen wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:19 pm
I guess that there is no technical issue with creating a factorio mod, that times a speed run the same way (in real time regardless of single player or not) and that have time splitters displayed the same way as LiveSplit does?
I'm not sure real world time can be accessed from a mod. And ingame time is not reliable enough (if you can't run the simulation at full speed, ingame time diverges from real-time).
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Re: Friday Facts #344 - Tile transition collisions & Team Steelaxe speedrun record

Post by ssilk »

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=50998 Realtime Clock / Timer to pause game / On Screen Display which displays current system-time

And from there we can go back to the ancients:
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=13299 Send players current time as event to all others
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