Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

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Alice3173
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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Alice3173 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:58 am

aljo wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:41 am
Agreed, though whole numbers do make sense as an alternative in some situations, like with US dollars. Why bother dealing with floating point errors when you can just store everything in pennies? Completely solves that problem. I think there might be *some* situations were you don't necessarily have whole pennies, but generally speaking it's a solid approach.
Anything that deals with percentages in any way, such as price discounts, taxes, or interest rates, absolutely wouldn't work that way. You'd need to do something like multiply the value by an arbitrary value like a million, apply the discount/interest/tax, then divide it by the previous arbitrary value. And even then in the case of interest rates in particular this would cause issues over the long term.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by gaelyte » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:39 am

Cadde wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:18 am
aljo wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:41 am
I think there might be *some* situations were you don't necessarily have whole pennies, but generally speaking it's a solid approach.
No bank ever is going to store currency in whole pennies. They have massive amounts of decimal places. At trillions of transactions per hour, even something as small as $0.000001 is going to mean a thousand dollars every hour is either created or destroyed. I don't find it that plausible for a bank to shelf out in the "destroyed" case.

And even then, storing it in pennies doesn't work for currency conversion. Say between Euro and USD. And interest rates are in percents. 10 percent of a penny is 0.1 pennies...

That being said, this game is not a banking system and would do well without floating point numbers in the simulation.
Can I have a source where it shows that trillions of transaction are as small as $0.000001 exists ? Because I don't see where it's possible to spend money this way.
And money is not magically converted, it's a trade between someone who have € and someone who have $

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by eradicator » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:52 am

gaelyte wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:39 am
Can I have a source where it shows that trillions of transaction are as small as $0.000001 exists ? Because I don't see where it's possible to spend money this way.
And money is not magically converted, it's a trade between someone who have € and someone who have $
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/ques ... rom-many-b

Not limited to digital:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_clipping
Author of: Hand Crank Generator, Screenshot Hotkey 2.0
Mod support languages: 日本語, Deutsch, English
My code in the post above is dedicated to the public domain under CC0.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by eruanno321 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:15 pm

bobucles wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 11:33 pm
map coordinates are defined in milimeters and microtiles and unit health pools are 330000/330000.
Well. A computer's internal value and a game's display output are by no means required to be the same value. 330000 internal can just as easily be 330 with a hidden decimal on the output. A float's going to hide that extra 0.00000021617236 anyway.

Indeed there are valid reasons to use floating point numbers, but almost everything that happens in terms of game mechanics really shouldn't. I mean, how many FFFs uncover yet another bug that is entirely due to the wonkiness of floats? :roll:
The so called fixed point or arbitrary precision math may open different class of problems. For example you may fix the rounding errors in one place and open overflow bugs in other places. The saturation and overflow is something I frequently need to deal with, when programming micro-controllers and FPGA - sometimes I wish I could use floats :)

Another problem is that you will likely end up with many, many number representations in the game. The example 330000 internal representation is still based on power of 10. But imagine that for angle representation you could choose power of 60, like 1 = 1/60 degree. That would perfectly fit the tick rate so you could achieve nice round angular velocity (degrees per second). On the other hand, for performance reasons, you may consider well established Q format (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(number_format)) - for example Q9.5 would keep 512 degrees with 1/64 step, all in 16-bit integer - the math operations on Q numbers usually are very cheap.

Unless you hide the arbitrary precision math in good C++ library (or whatever language Factorio uses) the bunch of representation may easily become a madness.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by pleegwat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:30 pm

For the random ore, how about using smaller footprint icons? Only have one or two chunks of ore per icon in the 'random' version of the icon, and use a denser 4/5 chunk icon in inventory/chests where they represent a stack.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by aka13 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:53 pm

God dammit, it looks SO good. I friggin love it. And the best part - I know it will still be performancefriendly as everything else is.
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Cadde » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:54 pm

gaelyte wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:39 am
Cadde wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:18 am
aljo wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:41 am
I think there might be *some* situations were you don't necessarily have whole pennies, but generally speaking it's a solid approach.
No bank ever is going to store currency in whole pennies. They have massive amounts of decimal places. At trillions of transactions per hour, even something as small as $0.000001 is going to mean a thousand dollars every hour is either created or destroyed. I don't find it that plausible for a bank to shelf out in the "destroyed" case.

And even then, storing it in pennies doesn't work for currency conversion. Say between Euro and USD. And interest rates are in percents. 10 percent of a penny is 0.1 pennies...

That being said, this game is not a banking system and would do well without floating point numbers in the simulation.
Can I have a source where it shows that trillions of transaction are as small as $0.000001 exists ? Because I don't see where it's possible to spend money this way.
And money is not magically converted, it's a trade between someone who have € and someone who have $
You misunderstood the point. The transaction is X.000001 where X can be a dollar or a million dollars... or anything in between.
And i never said it was magically converted. What's your point? Are you mad because i'm right?

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by V453000 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:48 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 11:27 pm
V453000 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:28 pm
Not supported yet. Currently it's defined this way in our branch:

Code: Select all

icon = "__base__/graphics/icons/mip/iron-ore.png",
icon_variations =
{
  { icon_size = 64, icon = "__base__/graphics/icons/mip/iron-ore-1.png" },
  { icon_size = 64, icon = "__base__/graphics/icons/mip/iron-ore-2.png" },
  { icon_size = 64, icon = "__base__/graphics/icons/mip/iron-ore-3.png" }
},
Is the "base" icon also used on belts? Or does it match up with one of the variations?

How many variations are you planning (ballpark)?

Sorry for boring questions but I'm unreasonably excited about this.
Thank you for the question, it's very appreciated!

Yes, the base icon is also used on belts. We were planning to try using 3 variations on belts for ores, and they seem to be enough. More would be fancier but also a bunch more work for not that much benefit.

I'm not sure how much is the technical maximum of variations you can actually add through modding.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by V453000 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 pm

Artman40 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am
I really like the random resource icons. I think an option to disable the random look could also be a good idea.
I think it should be easy to remove by a mod.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Blacky007 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 pm

V453000 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 pm
Artman40 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am
I really like the random resource icons. I think an option to disable the random look could also be a good idea.
I think it should be easy to remove by a mod.
would it be possible to add a option into settings that switch to old style?

i get a headache watching the new ores.
and with the new ores the game is done for me - Sorry

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by SkiCarver » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:27 pm

Blacky007 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 pm
V453000 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 pm
Artman40 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am
I really like the random resource icons. I think an option to disable the random look could also be a good idea.
I think it should be easy to remove by a mod.
would it be possible to add a option into settings that switch to old style?

i get a headache watching the new ores.
and with the new ores the game is done for me - Sorry
If you dont mind me asking, what is it about the new ores that causes an issue?

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:49 pm

V453000 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:48 pm
Thank you for the question, it's very appreciated!

Yes, the base icon is also used on belts. We were planning to try using 3 variations on belts for ores, and they seem to be enough. More would be fancier but also a bunch more work for not that much benefit.

I'm not sure how much is the technical maximum of variations you can actually add through modding.
So 4 variations total ... Not much extra work at all. Think it would look great for some (mostly modded) items like stacked plates as well. Flat things like single plates, not so much.

Can't wait, this has joined the character UI redesign at the top of my most wanted list.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Hiladdar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:31 pm

Advantages and disadvantages of the new ore icons.

They look great is great advantage. But, the player ability to identify an uncompressed belt is a disadvantage. This is due to the randomization of the display of the raw ore. If you have on the belt two large sized chunks of ore next to each other, the belt will look compressed. But if you have two several small chunks of ore on the belt next to each other, the belt may look uncompressed.

I'm not as worried about the logic of placing or squeezing ore onto a belt if there is room. My assumption is that each piece of ore prior to implementation of the new graphics will have "x" and "y" dimensions, and will retain those dimensions internally, and only that the display of the actual ore on the belt will change.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by OrwellianChild » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:44 pm

chris13524 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:41 pm
Oh god why is the first GIF actually a GIF and not a video? 4M file here we come...
Just came to second this comment. The article is great, but the initial GIF in the article is huge and chunks on my machine - makes it hard to read/scroll the page on Firefox. Please update to a video embed or otherwise downsize!

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Blacky007 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:56 am

SkiCarver wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:27 pm
Blacky007 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 pm
V453000 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 pm
Artman40 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am
I really like the random resource icons. I think an option to disable the random look could also be a good idea.
I think it should be easy to remove by a mod.
would it be possible to add a option into settings that switch to old style?

i get a headache watching the new ores.
and with the new ores the game is done for me - Sorry
If you dont mind me asking, what is it about the new ores that causes an issue?
1. this leads to massive amout of CPU usage and you need to control each ore piece. full belts are calculated from gab to gab.
2. if you have a large area full of ore belts you will get problems with your eyes - in old style you have a clear picture of the ores and no massive change every time the ore moves.
but with the new you have massive flickering in the belt.
I have nothing against new ore display IF you add a setting that this can be turned off !

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by vsvasya » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:19 am

New icons are very satisfying!

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Deadlock989 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:25 am

Blacky007 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:56 am
SkiCarver wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:27 pm
Blacky007 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:04 pm
V453000 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 pm
Artman40 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am
I really like the random resource icons. I think an option to disable the random look could also be a good idea.
I think it should be easy to remove by a mod.
would it be possible to add a option into settings that switch to old style?

i get a headache watching the new ores.
and with the new ores the game is done for me - Sorry
If you dont mind me asking, what is it about the new ores that causes an issue?
1. this leads to massive amout of CPU usage
No it doesn't.
and you need to control each ore piece.
No you don't.
full belts are calculated from gab to gab.
I don't know what that means.
2. if you have a large area full of ore belts you will get problems with your eyes
No I won't.
in old style you have a clear picture of the ores and no massive change every time the ore moves.
but with the new you have massive flickering in the belt.
No you don't. I made my own. No flickering, even when zoomed out: https://imgur.com/bYTTLPB (the jumping is just the way the animation is clipped)

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by catma » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:01 am

pleegwat wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:52 pm
catma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:40 pm
P.S.: new launch deserves new merch. The "now or never" for fridge magnets, backpacks, and hammers is soon!!
Wouldn't pickaxes make more sense than hammers?

How about toolbelts?
Yes, toolbelts, but MOST people have a hammer while SOME people have toolbelts. But we should have both. And ratchets for all these gear-using contraptions!! And screwdrivers!!! And ... well, a toolbox content on your toolbelt. And a portable nuclear powered laser defense... (-;

As for pickaxes, another game would call them a "limited edition" since they're no longer in the latest version..... and force you to interact with a weird game portal without refunds to go fetch it, not to mention a video game convention ticket and selling your soul to some mailing list. Factorio team? They'd sell people who want one a durable pickaxe as often as people want them because greedy marketing gimmicks aren't their thing. (-;

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by 1_hele_euro » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:32 pm

This is just an OCD thing I think, but ever since I started playing Factorio, it always bothered me that the colors of Iron Ore & Copper Ore weren't as accurate as they're IRL. As I said, noting major, just kinda OCD related, tho maybe if anyone has the time for it?

Iron Ore Image

Copper Ore Image

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Deadlock989 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:47 pm

1_hele_euro wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:32 pm
This is just an OCD thing I think, but ever since I started playing Factorio, it always bothered me that the colors of Iron Ore & Copper Ore weren't as accurate as they're IRL. As I said, noting major, just kinda OCD related, tho maybe if anyone has the time for it?
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RealisticOres

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