Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

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Avezo
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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:18 am

jphill4life wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:22 pm
One note to improve though, make modules easier to upgrade! If there are lvl 1 mods in a building, and I have a higher leveled mod selected (or a different module) let me be able to rapidly replace a whole line. I literally thought this was a bug when it didn't let me do it.
Yes, please! I think only module replacement and setting wagon cargo filters are still missing fast-drag'n'replace feature introduced in previous patches.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Twisted_Code » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:49 pm

Aw, no escape pod anymore? I was really looking forward to being able to obtain space science parks (thus enabling work on infinite technologies) without winning the game. Why? Because I want to keep my achievements as impeccably funny as they are currently. As it stands, I have "So long and thanks for all the..." unlocked and "smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast" locked. It was my way of showing people I know where my towel is :P

Other than that, I'm really excited about all these changes. Nervous about having to relearn the tech tree (sort of), but excited nonetheless!

edit: would it be possible to make the victory condition happen ONLY if the rocket is empty? And out of curiosity, where will you be putting the documentation on that remote call you mentioned at the bottom? I looked through the preview documentation to see if it was mentioned somewhere in the list of classes, but I didn't find it.
How to report bugs effectively because everyone should know this.
The game's tech tree, a visual reference guide (soon to be depreciated).

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by TheRaph » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:45 pm

Pothrekr wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:48 am
Hi,

I have been play testing the changes with a mod. While it may be minor I found that with the removal of the 2 inputs for a tier 1 assembler there is now a lack of progression for automating the Logistics Science Pack.

I honestly don't really care about the input restriction for assemblers, however I feel like there was progression with the old method where you had to research automation 2, to be able to automate Logistics Science Packs. Which I guess showed that not all assemblers are the same.

I don't think an arbitrary research unlock is the answer, but if each science pack automation is supposed to tie in a new part of the game I am unsure what this science pack builds on. It kind of feels like it's just there because we want another science pack.

It seems like it's required for me to say (So other cannot speak for me) that I am enjoying all the other changes and I feel like the increase in importance of stone is a godsend. Goodwork.

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Poth
Agree!

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by steinio » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:45 pm

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Spanishman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:47 pm

I think that this update looks really cool. But I miss some revisions on vehicular maners... I have to sugestions, a new vehicle and an upgrade for an existing one.
1st, the new one. A truck.
Currently from all the current vehicles the only one cleary intended for logistics is the train, which is good but requires a semi-permantent infrastructure, wich I cant justify on small pachs or early expansions. That will be its purpose. It will look like a 3-axle truck or a half track and the upfit will be modular.
Being that as follows:
Chest(any type) = Cargo Space equal to x1.5 times the chest type
Tank(for fluid) = Adds liquid cargo capabilities, holds 25k. Only one type on liquid at a time. Same weight penalty has fluid wagon.
Gun Turret = Now you can shot things on your truck, consumes magazines, can shot automaticly (0.5 of normal range) or manual (togleable). Has a little (5 spaces?) of storage for more magazines.
Artillery = You can shoot long rage on your truck. Only manual shooting, requires the truck to be stoped and deploy legs (like a crane truck) that takes 10 secs (or more) to deploy/retract, you cant move whit the legs deployed or while deploying/retracting. Has too a small amount of space (5 spaces) for shells.

Also the truck will be faster than the tank but slower than the buggy and only have a bit more armor than the buggy/car thing. No included wearpons. More fuel capacity. 10 integrated spaces only. I think that is fairly balanced since youre trading speed, capacity and being automatizable for the sake of freedom of movement.



2nd, the upgrade, of the tank.
I think that the tank becomes really weak really fast. Not in atack capabilities but in defensive ones. As such, I have a few sugestions.
-A automaic mode for the submachine gun (less than half the range, only when not selected) for defense purposes. I find strange that you can build automatic turrets but not a defensive mode for the secondary wearpon, and since the bonus damange removal, It would be ok I think.
-An upgrade to make it compatible whit modular armor later on. (Can be even a new tank with more modern look and a bit better stats). So you dont fell more tank than your tank. Is a attack vehicle, I feel like you should feel more powerfull in the tank, not the same...:
-The exoexkeleton will add reload speed instead movility speed. Like an autoloader on real life tanks. Maybe a 15% bonus.
-The power related upgrades would work the same
-It will have a 10x10 grid (or more)
-The laser gun will give the submachine gun a laser related bonus damange
-I havent decide yet if roboports would work on the tank, probably yes
-Shields will work normally and will merge with the players ones for a bonus defense
-Night vision will work for the player in a togleable fasion
-If the tank has a mk2 evolution whit modern looks, it can have a railgun canon compatible with standard tank ammo. It will give a bonus damange using tank fuel. (Like it is consuming electriciy, maybe can be added a battery on the tank regarldles modular armor that depletes by shoting and recharges by burning fuel)

I hope that someone likes my sugesttions and I hope the best for everyone, thanks for reading.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by bobucles » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:20 pm

Factorio probably doesn't need any more wheeled vehicles. The spiderbot has a place because it can walk over troublesome terrain and thus have better frontier mobility. Any other vehicle scaling can be mostly solved with equipment modules. For example the car is WAY too squishy and simply disappears after the mid game, but with a few shields it can see renewed life on the field.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Urglefloggah » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:45 am

My 2 cents as someone who has played this game for over 800 hours...

Personally i like the walls as Military science ingredients. that is an awesome addition and incentive to automate stone bricks early and have walls available for defence...

However, i really think Rail is a step in the opposite direction for Production Science as you are reverting back to using un-smelted stone in addition to smelted stone brick in the same recipe...
i agree that it brings to attention the option of direct input from one factory to another, or two as the case may be.
I would go as far to say that Assembling machine 2, or even Oil Refineries (as far from usable in these quantities these are!), would make a better third ingredient to this recipe.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Beil » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:11 pm

I have to mention that I agree with many others here, overall the new science looks great with the one exception of rails. The issue I have with rails is not the number but the weird use of unrefined stone ore so late. It is very weird and out of place. Every other raw resource gets processed before use, heck even the stone itself does for mass produced items. Thus shoving belts of raw stone down the factory for one late game science is just wrong. I would rather see rails use brick or concrete. You might think that out of place but railroads use concrete for ties in many places.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by vanatteveldt » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:27 pm

what about using barrels? it fits thematically for chemistry packs, is a steel sink, and can be used in quantity.

can either use empty barrels or light oil barrels. Can even use water barrels of you want to promote barreling and add a bit of puzzle without increasing oil demand.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by pleegwat » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:20 pm

Please note Wube is using a completely different argument for what to put in science than most people here.

Rail isn't in production because it makes thematic sense for production, but because they want you to start using rail in massive quantities by the time you get to the production pack.

Barrels won't go in any pack because there is no point at which Wube thinks every factory should be using barrels.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm

Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by 5thHorseman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 am

Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm
Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...
I know that since liquid train cars, I've removed barrels from MY games altogether.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Zavian » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:08 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 am
Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm
Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...
I know that since liquid train cars, I've removed barrels from MY games altogether.
Well barrels provide their own set of challenges, especially if you avoid using bots to move the barrels. So keeping them allows for an interesting alternative to liquid train wagons.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by RocketManChronicles » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:46 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 am
Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm
Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...
I know that since liquid train cars, I've removed barrels from MY games altogether.
Why? I train tank wagons full of crude oil to my refinery where then everything is barreled. Barrels of crude and water are delivered to the refineries and then barrels of the three products are delivered to train stations that load tank wagons of their products to be delivered elsewhere. The barreling in the refinery allows for massive throughput compared to piping it; especially when the refineries are surrounded by beacons. The piping could not keep up, but barreling surely can.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:56 pm

RocketManChronicles wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:46 pm
5thHorseman wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:11 am
Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm
Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...
I know that since liquid train cars, I've removed barrels from MY games altogether.
Why?
Pipes are easier and I don't build megabases.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by DaveMcW » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:48 pm

Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:33 pm
Actually, after not-so-recent barrel nerf, I'd rather expect they'd removed barrels altogether...

I'm sure removing barrels was an option, but the devs decided on the nerf instead.

This way barrels are never the most efficient way to move high volumes, but they still have specialty uses. Of course if your base is big enough that even your special uses are high-volume, you don't need to worry about barrels.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by MicFac » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:59 pm

Mike5000 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:54 pm
MicFac wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:40 pm
...
This way the player is required to automate all fundamental logistic "devices" very early game.
In a game about discovering, learning, inventing, solving puzzles, and playing freely all this new hand-holding is the opposite of a good thing.
I wouldn't consider this a bad thing, having to automate pipes would just smooth out the game experience, it doesn't spoil any problem solving. However I do see a problem with it too. People might take the stuff they already automated from belts, instead of having seperate machines putting it into chests, but think it is much more satisfying to take your automated items out of chests rather than using a belt buffer.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by planetmaker » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:43 pm

These changes read very reasonable and sound to me - for the reasons listed in the FFF. Especially the military science and blue science probably profit and fit smoother into the game.

Nice way to go forward and looking forward to it :)

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Dry Hairy Tree » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:29 pm

Testing this with the mod made for testing this.

Asking for too much steel from 30 x rail plus an electric furnace. That's not increasing complexity it is making the end game more like a marathon.

I feel exactly the same way about the requirement for 3 x low density structures in a science pack.

Then there's the 24 second craft time for blue science. You've not made it better, you've just doubled the craft time and added two red circuits making it more difficult. I'm still going to need a large jump in resources from green to blue, it's still going to take much more space.

Rethink this. We don't all have the luxury of playing all day.

Ask the punters, not the experts in your office who have the luxury of playing as part of their job.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:19 pm

There is something I didn't notice before - with huge push for steel instead of iron plates in new recipes, a great UPS gains come. Not sure if it was intended, but that direction seems right.

Now, find a way to reduce copper wire 'movement' in prodction chain too, they have the largest movement volume - I'm talking about this: https://i.redd.it/lr7gbpixh3h11.png

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