Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:44 pm

Well I know what mod I'm downloading from that shiny new mod portal first.

And really I probably would have anyway. Limiting it to 5 nodes is almost as bad as cutting it entirely.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by eidolonFIRE_XI » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:50 pm

Please do not nix the research queue! :(
Maybe you should not have thermostat on your air conditioner. it trivializes the cool air. You should have an egg timer that stops the AC every few minutes and you have to get up and go start it again each time. :twisted:

I have been eagerly waiting for that feature in new UI!!!

My reasons:
- No research downtime between jobs.
- Going through quick research early in game is annoying to keep getting interrupted
- 99% of the time you know what research you want next
- Going through late-game infinite research you don't want to be bothered with kick starting the next one... you also want to be able to let your mega factory run while you tab out to watch something or go take a dump.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by T-A-R » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:51 pm

Please surprise us with extra functionallity. For us less is not more.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Kilandor » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm

I understand that you feel the research queue takes something away. However I feel that is what options are for. It can be off by default and allow people to choose to use it or not.
To be fair i've used the existing research queue mod for a long time and even if you don't add it back as an option I will just use it then.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Koub » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:15 pm

Ultimoos wrote:if you are still not convinced by all those replies, make a strawpoll question about this and see what your fan base think.
https://www.strawpoll.me/16203526
You do realize there is a way to make a poll directly in the forum, right ?
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Lubricus » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:20 pm

I understand the downside of the research queue. I thing the queue is bad for knew players and good for players that have played a long time and already know bigger part of the tech by hart (Many forum dwellers). So i think it's a good design to leave it to mods or an option.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by GuiltyBystander » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Rebuttal to the "Cons" list.
The newly unlocked recipes might be overlooked (It is solvable by some kind of pop-up, but it is far from perfect).
I've played the game an awful lot. This is not a problem. I understand that not everyone knows the game super well, but are people really just going to fill up their queue with random tech they have no idea what it's for? Normally I only research stuff I need, or stuff that's in the way of stuff I need.
It removes the joy of looking at the result of the research and of picking a new thing that will be the next one to do.
That's not a joy. This is a Pro.
It adds to the feeling of just going through a to-do list without having much to say about it.
That's a problem with the research tree itself, not a research queue. When going to research the final rocket silo, it's tedious to constantly click each of the rocket shooting speeds that I never got otherwise. Being constantly reminded that I have to research tech I don't "want" makes it feel like I don't have much say about it. It'd be a lot nicer to just click the rocket silo once (the tech I want) and forget about it until it's done. Same thing with power armor; have to grind through 5-10 techs and constantly get reminded that I don't have a say about it.
The queue has to be changed a lot as the priorities change.
This is exactly why we need a research queue. If you're in the middle of something and realize you need another tech, you should be able to just add it to the front of the queue. It's really annoying when you do this now and when the tech finishes you forget/can't find what you were working on previously.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Zool » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:32 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!

Well, I agree that there should be a popup about a finished research so you keep track of what happened, but the queue itself is a so much needed feature:
The typical process is, you sit in front of the research tree, think about your priorities, and see „ok, I need X technology, sadly I need to research A, B and C before - so you want to queue them.

Without the queue, you now just select A. But once its finished, you restart thinking about what is your actual goal, and which steps are neccessary for it - not because everything changed in the last 15 minutes, but rather because you are a lazy bastart who simply doesn‘t remember exactly ... so you click again through the researches until you finally find again that important B and C tech you need now. Or you forget the important one, select something different, until 10 mins later, you see again „oh no I wanted kovarex enrichment asap, damn“

The problem you wrote about may be there for newer players, so it might make sense to couple the max length of the research queue research to, lets say as example: the different science packs. First pack? No queue. Next pack? Queue 2 ... and so on.

Or couple it to an achievement like „started the missile“ for example. Once you played to that point, its a replay and things get repetetive - small quality of life improvements are very welcome there.

Or even better:
Make the queue optional, its turned off by default - and once people get into the game more, they can just enable it in the options.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:38 pm

Nice - the mod discussions do not suck anymore. I also like the game version filter and trending tab - although i noticed both some time ago (might even be weeks, but not sure about that).

I don't care at all about the research queue (not even using one of the mods implementing that). But if you really implemented a working research queue and then just wasted it for some strawman non-reasons, check the AC - it might have given you hypothermia. Mental confusion is in the list of symptoms for light cases and your reasons sound pretty confuse...

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by TheUnknown007 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:42 pm

I haven't read everything yet, so I apologize if this has already been said:

I agree with your cons, and I actually think that they are valid enough to kill the research queue. But I don't think that we should keep the current system of "10 techs that are just prereqs followed by the one you actually care about" and "choose one: get interrupted to select the next research or have your labs idle until you remember that research is done"

I agree that seeing the research as a todo list is a problem, but that doesn't change by removing the queue: now it is just a todolist that requires some manual action once in a while.
The reason that players see research as a todo list is that the more experienced players (2+ playthroughs or so) know what they want, but they need to research the prerequisites (i.e. train network is three researches right now, and the vast majority of players will want them all). Thus, it becomes a todo list:
to build a train network
  • research rails + trains
  • research train stops
  • research train signals
I also see another problem, the "I don't care what, just research anything"-problem. We all know that red/green/[possibly grey] phase where you have all the techs you need, but you need to set up oil before you can make blue science and you just select any random science you can do right now.


I suggest a solution consisting of three parts to solve the problem:
First: a research goal. Players can select only one research, but it can be any research. The game will automatically research all prerequisites. This solves the problem of the todo list, but it keeps the "oh, that thing I actually wanted is done" good feeling.
This solves all the cons that were listed in the FFF:
  • "The newly unlocked recipes might be overlooked (It is solvable by some kind of pop-up, but it is far from perfect)."
    players can see the end result, the intermediate techs are not interesting anyway.
  • "It removes the joy of looking at the result of the research and of picking a new thing that will be the next one to do."
    still exists in this solution
  • "It adds to the feeling of just going through a to-do list without having much to say about it."
    feeling is removed: all the techs the players chooses is an actual choice, not just the need to select the next already chosen research.
  • "The queue has to be changed a lot as the priorities change."
    changing priorities means just a single click to select the new goal.
Secondly, add an option to do random research with specified science types. This keeps the pro for the queue: "It feels appropriate in some situations, like finishing all remaining green science that I don't care about as I'm not producing blue yet etc."

Additionally, add an option "keep researching this infinite research". That way players don't have to keep pressing "okay, do the next mining productivity". This solves the second pro: "It feels okay to queue the repeating upgrade research at times, but as the cost grows quite fast usually, it becomes less and less of a problem."

Finally, if these are not implemented, I join the crowd and I demand the option to enable the research queue.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mathturtle » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:52 pm

I understand the part about the new recipes being unlocked but not noticed. It is part of the reason that I don't like the auto-research mod and don't include it unless I am very familiar with a modpack. But the research queue is more of a reminder to myself that I'm working toward bots (for example). I would love a Civilization-style research queue where I can click on bots and it would research all the prerequisites automatically. I'd be okay with locking it behind the rocket if you want to make the new player experience not have the queue (or make it a default-off map setting). I don't think it should be limited to 5 techs... Civ lets you queue up the whole tree if you want. I don't like your reasons for not adding it, if you are replaying the game then research is always going to degenerate into a todo list.

But a possible compromise (from a megabase builder): If you are not adding a queue, can infinite techs automatically start the next level when the finish? Please?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by IronCartographer » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:58 pm

MagRoader wrote:I didn't select any of the intermediate prerequisites like Engines or Automobilism to research myself; that was automatically selected for me when I chose logistics robots. If I changed my mind and wanted railway signals instead, all the queued-up stuff I didn't want would go away.
Using the tech tree like this would make it consistent with the handcrafting mechanic, automatically selecting and attempting to complete every research along the way. The only issue is that the tech tree doesn't actually include every dependency, like the unlocks for the packs required in another branch.
lacika2000 wrote:Another suggestion:

Infinite research should be truly infinite, I believe. This meaning that if I have selected an infinite item, it should keep researching it without me selecting it again, even after reaching another level, until I select something else.

So instead of clicking again and again on an infitine item at every research turn (potentially infinite clicks!), i would click once, and the game would keep repeating this item until I select (one click!) something else.

This would avoid all the infinite loop of useless clicking from the player on the “infinite” research items in the end game by simple automation... 8-)
Agreed. This much shouldn't be controversial... although I guess it could really annoy someone if they wasted packs on partial progress toward a tech. So it should still be opt-in, not forced. :P

tl;dr: At least add a toggle for automatic infinite repeating research, if not a full auto-research vis-à-vis the handcrafting mechanic.
Last edited by IronCartographer on Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by darkfrei » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Why not loaders-style? Research queue can be added in vanilla, but just disabled.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Lappro » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:49 pm

Just here to say that I do want the research queue.

The fact that new players don't see new stuff seems more like an issue with research progress itself, rather than with queuing the research. There is definitely a solution for research queuing that works great for veteran players as well as keeping progress clear for newbies.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Eagle0600 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:54 pm

Very often, I'm in the middle of something when research finishes, and I don't want to have to look at it right now. Even having a single-item-long queue would help with this, allowing me to check the research that was completed and look into what I want to research next later, rather than having to do it immediately or have my labs sitting there doing nothing for a minute.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by blueblue » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:19 pm

From my first playthrough, even without research queue new recipes are overlooked. if this is a priority then some other solution is needed, e.g. highlight newly unlocked recipes.

The tech tree is too bloated. There's stuff like laser or flight that doesn't do anything. There's so many tiers of damage and speed upgrades - those could be merged into a combined damage+speed upgrade but there's also too many tiers, I don't care for two upgrades per science-pack-tier on weapons. Tech choice would be more meaningful if the packages were larger but fewer, for example merge sulfur and plastics researches, merge modules into 3 researches instead of 10, merge the three rail-related researches. Nightvision, portable solar panel and battery equipment could be merged into modular armor. The list goes on. Artillery and nuclear power are examples of good technologies, those are big packages that you take for strategic reasons. But in the mid game there are so very many technologies that unlock only one or two recipes.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by KoblerMan » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:25 pm

TfGuy44 wrote:I assumed that the ability to queue up research would be something that was unlocked with a new tech.

If it cost, say, 300 red and green science, then it would put it past the new-player barrier.
Just need to say it: this quote is absolutely hilarious. I found myself laughing uncontrollably at it.
hoylemd wrote:If the dev team ultimately doesn't believe this is worth putting in the base game, then perhaps a compromise?

Talk to the developers of the research queue mods and find out what limitations of the mod API are preventing them from their 'ideal' implementation. For example, it would be nice if they were integrated into the research screen, or could implement the notifications instead of interrupting the player with a full-screen popup.

My thinking is that the devs appear reluctant to do big UI changes, but the modding community has to do a *ton* of UI programming by necessity. So UI enhancements might be produced more efficiently by having the core dev team support the modding community to develop big UI enhancements. That would probably also facilitate integrating especially successful (and high-quality) mods back into the base game, if they become ubiquitous enough.
See? Something like that would be PERFECT.
Nanolathe wrote:I think... that you're probably right not to implement the Research Queue Kovarex. I've played with the auto-research mod and I found that losing direct control over the process meant that I completely disengaged from the Research system... just ignored it. I think that's what you're getting at with that "feeling"; it's disengagement and disinterest. I can see why people don't find the research system interesting. In fact, I don't find it interesting, but by forcing me to engage with it I do have a sense of my factory's ability to process Science. I feel more connected to what my factory is doing, and what it is capable of.

Adding a Research Queue is too convenient.

...

I feel like I'm going to get lynched now. :oops:
There's no such thing as "too convenient" in a game that is so damn complicated (in a good way, of course) - ESPECIALLY if it's a QoL feature.
A good handful of people in this thread wrote:Maybe you should LOCK the research queue as a research of its own behind a bunch of technologies, or only enable the feature after the player has launched their first rocket.
This is a TERRIBLE idea, for so many reasons:

1. Many players will get about halfway through the game, end up quitting, and sporadically start new games. This is actually quite a common playstyle that comes with many games that drag on for a long time, such as 4X strategy games and RPG's with exceptionally long single-player campaigns. That isn't to say the length of a game is a poor design element; in fact, it adds a lot of replay value. If you lock a QoL feature behind a research option or a finished game, you've just effectively prevented many people from ever having access to it.

2. Any sort of new feature (especially if it's for QoL) should ALWAYS be readily available for new players. Yes, it can be daunting for new players to look at Factorio's spaghetti bowl of a research tree, or the frankly messy GUI elements, and not have any idea how to navigate the menus. However, by blocking them access to new features when they start the game, you're now just watering down the game. Upon launching their first rocket and starting over again, new players will suddenly have new features sprung onto them, which would be a lot more confusing than just including it in the first place.

3. It seems a bit silly to say that a few GUI elements that make Factorio - a game about automation and efficiency - more automated and efficient - should be locked behind a research option. What?
Like, I dunno, maybe half the people on this thread wrote:Playing with mods is better. Why bother implementing a cool new feature to vanilla Factorio when you can just play with mods that do the exact same thing? After all, if you're not playing with mods, you're not playing Factorio. You NEED mods for lots of different features that aren't included anyway. Mods are necessary to further the advancement of mods. Mods are mods, which mod mods. Mods mods, mods MODS mods, mods mods MODS mods. Mods mods. Mods. Mods? Mods.
But are mods really the answer to the game's problems? The point of Factorio including these features is to avoid mods for them in the first place. If you're not on vanilla, you're not earning achievements. Also, mods can be a really big pain in the cunning linguals since they're often a not-so-elegant solution to what is often a simple problem. They shoehorn in GUI elements, conflict with each other, often sport sprite artwork that clashes with Factorio's dieselpunk aesthetic, needlessly divide the Factorio fanbase into "pro-vanilla" and "pro-modded", mismatch with multiplayer servers, and also disable achievements. A game should be good enough to stand on its own without mods. That's the point of Factorio's development. Achievements exist as milestones for people who want bragging rights for a difficult goal that they worked hard for, and can be displayed on a Steam profile. In fact, although achievements are controversial (some people like them, others could care less), they're a nice touch to a game which is, in reality, all about the player's achievements. Achievements are best when achieved during the achievement of achievements. Achieving achievements achieved achievements. Achieve achievements. Achievements. Achievements? Achievements.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by KoblerMan » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:17 am

Koub wrote:
Ultimoos wrote:if you are still not convinced by all those replies, make a strawpoll question about this and see what your fan base think.
https://www.strawpoll.me/16203526
You do realize there is a way to make a poll directly in the forum, right ?
Well, as a mod, I think it'd be more helpful if you showed us how to do that rather than condescending upon us.

At any rate, I would hope that the next time the devs drop the ball on a major feature like a functional research queue in the base game, they will PROVIDE us with an official forum poll that we can use ourselves to help determine the fate of the features - instead of deciding internally to drop it without player input, then conceding to the foregone conclusion that everyone will be up in arms about it.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Nova » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:35 am

You removed a feature because it has a problem, without even trying to fix it? Come on Wube, you can do better than that! That's really a low point of you. :/
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by dood » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:04 am

Oh. My god.
Just add the que.
There is no "joy" in looking at icons and having to click on each one manually.
Research IS a to-do list.
Sorry but the sparkly fairy dust wears off after playthrough #2 and all you want from that point on is efficiency.

Wasn't this game about not having to babysit laborious tasks and automating repetetive processes?
Why stop sticking to the gameplan and going all whimsical now?

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