Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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Fuxy
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Fuxy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:16 pm

I understand the point of kovarex but what happens now isn't as rosy as he describes it either.

What tends to happen now is I research a few of the critical elements and inevitably forget to research anymore because i get distracted by something else. Being able to queue something is way better while I'm distracted than constantly realizing I ignored the prompt.

Yes certainly the priority of research is constantly changing and i will adjust it when i feel the need but being constantly interrupted and having to think what to put on next is worse and most of the time i just end up putting something random to use the time and resources instead of having to think about it.

I see no reason why that can't be automated.

Certainly if you get enjoyment from playing in the style kovarex described constantly you could just not queue anything and use it like you always did nobody will stop you but my guess is it gets old and annoying after a while.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by T-A-R » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:27 pm

provet wrote:Come on now guys, let's be civilized about this.
I'm 100% sure Kovarex meant well with his decision to take the game in a interactive and fun direction rather than a tech waiting game.
Most of the research (besides repetitive bonus research) provide lots of new content to explore, so it shouldn't be meant for "afk researching" anyway.

And besides, it doesn't make sense that (some of you) start name calling and such over such a small thing as an
action that requires your attention most of the time; once every 5-30 min.

Chill, m'kay?
We might became a bit heated about this FFF, at least i did, including pitchfork and torch. Of course we're cool and we still love Kovarex, but the delivery of the message stubbed a lot toes, which resulted in dissapointment leading to emotion reactions.
I would rather see this "uncivilized behavior" more as a wooden married couple squabbling happy together. Letting your heart speak is indirectly showing that your care about it. His decisions gave us the game as it is, and respect him deeply for that. He' s the one carrying the master vision of Factorio.

There is a lot of feedback why and how this researching could be improved, Showing off something with the message " you won' t get this neat feature" is like trowing an piece of red juicy meat in the hungry hyena pit, of course we start screaming about that airco unit. It is great marketing, see all those replies.

Since half of a FFF is dedicated to it the topic is in the spotlight, this is how we feel about it. Interrupting your workflow, and lack of planning options just doesn' t seem to feel right for a game about automation (we're on page 9 by now). We just can' t find ourself in the pro/cons picture which was drawn.

Why should you wait for science projects, you' re in need of more iron.
If you could only finally focus on it...biters, lack of resource, train bug fixing, stalling machines, contaminations etc. What would be the ideal fraction of time where you actuall play: rolling out your expansion plans? Not prioritizing a research decision over your current task is now punished with inefficiency and stall time.

Shouldn't the ''afk-ing'' (able to do something else) be seen as a reward for a propper set up line? Beginners simply end with a stalled/dried out line. real afk playing is a niche anyways it think (it' s highway to deadly dangerous cractorio), most player probably return to their own tasks in the factory when they propper set up some projects (trains, bots, weapons). Planning a path instead of a single supplement, doesnt that sound satistfying?
If you want the players to know the tree auto pathing would be way to much, i agree on that but once i found a path to tech i like, i would love to set that order a single time, and then focus completely on feeding and protecting the labs. (ideally mainly setting science goals when i start producing new potions).
Once you have done all finite science projects, the science screen isn't interesting flashy and joyfull anymore. By that time a toggle is just convenience to keep the beast running and removes nothing but distraction. An alert sound/flash on completion is enough to satistfy you that you have reached an other level of infinitech.

Forum players just want to have grinds of the game addressed and solved. Nobody wants grinds in games unless its Tony Hawk. It is about small and subtle changes, but all those small tasks together make the game experience. actually the point Kovarex made but opposite to the new player view which was used while testing.
The quick conclusion and discussable arguments is just not how we know Kovarex. Imo normally his arguments just feel a lot stronger and more reasonable.

And about the airco: Im glad they stuck a sufficient productivity module in the office for end game programming. Broken airco' s just lead to faulty code.

Just a few more days and its friday again and this fece storm will calm down.

Peace out.

Aonova
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Aonova » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:29 pm

Guys there's still mods for queueing research if the more advanced player wants it on their 5th playthrough or whatever. I personally support the catering of the most apparent hard-baked elements of gameplay (UI and on-screen messages and such) to the newcomer. Even having it as a checkbox in the options menu is an impression of weak and indecisive design. Maybe leave a mod-able framework to use those nice UI visuals, or even go the next step and create a mod that does exactly that? Anyways, focusing developing and debugging time to higher and more discriminating priorities seems like a professional thing to do.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by lacika2000 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:01 am

After reading all the posts, the following crystallized out for me:
  • Please keep the research queue, with the preferred form of being a “thread” or “path”, autoselecting the required research to reach the target picked by the player.
  • Please make infinite research items autostep to the next level without human intervention unless the player selects another item.
  • If needed for new user experience, you could lock the queue behind an option or an achievement, e.g. launching a rocket, or make it a tech on its own (but then max green science pack requirement).
Hope you will consider this as a viable alternative to kovarex’s view.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by bobucles » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:43 am

Can't say I really feel bad about losing the research queue. It never seemed like an essential feature and there are already automatic research mods to take care of the 800+ hour player. For the new player, picking and pondering their every research topic probably is the right solution since it lets them learn about each new thing.

The only annoying thing is having to sweep the mouse left to click a thing, right to click research. On a big 4k screen it hurts my wrists! :lol: Can't I use keyboard input on the research screen?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by zombieroboninja » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:00 am

I want the ability to be able to click a research with prerequisites, click research, and have the game automatically research the prerequisites without further futzing on my part. Please!!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by psa » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 am

Perhaps, given that Factorio is a game of automation, the research queue can be another facet that can be automated. It would be lovely to be able to connect labs to the circuit network and have them dynamically research based on various inputs. I'd like to be able to set research based on statements such as:
  • If this chest has > 1,000 military science packs in it, research X; otherwise research Y
  • If research stops processing due to lack of science packs, change research using the following logic to decide on the next highest priority item to research (e.g. if you run out of blue, grind on the first 3 stages of mining productivity until there's more blue)
  • After researching all the core train technologies, the top priority (if other conditions are met) is advanced oil processing
Now, doing this will likely require some higher level categorization of research ("rockets", "trains", etc) and/or automatic back-filling of dependencies.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mikiqex » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:19 am

zombieroboninja wrote:I want the ability to be able to click a research with prerequisites, click research, and have the game automatically research the prerequisites without further futzing on my part.
Exactly! It's the same concept, as crafting, so it's already in Factorio's DNA, so to speak :-). If I wouldn't want to use the queue, I can click just the successive research every time. And when the clicked research finishes, the research window will pop-up.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:43 pm

zombieroboninja wrote:I want the ability to be able to click a research with prerequisites, click research, and have the game automatically research the prerequisites without further futzing on my part. Please!!
I'd like to second third that!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Claudius1729 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 pm

zombieroboninja wrote:I want the ability to be able to click a research with prerequisites, click research, and have the game automatically research the prerequisites without further futzing on my part. Please!!
Let me fourth that.

And someone mentionned no need to re-invent the wheel. Multiple 4xs have a satisfying tech tree system like Civilization or the Endless.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Gankersik » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:27 pm

Why not just make research queue an actual endgame research unlockable along with infinity researches so you wont need to worry about picking em that much?

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Alice3173
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Alice3173 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:37 am

Gankersik wrote:Why not just make research queue an actual endgame research unlockable along with infinity researches so you wont need to worry about picking em that much?
What would even be the point of a research queue in the first place if almost everything will be researched by the time you can even get it?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by chimeric10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 am

Why not make the research queue an unlock for completing the game (available after first rocket launch)? This gives the players that have already finished and already know the research an option for queuing, but leaves the first time player something to do, like you state in your reasons for removing it entirely.

Personally I don't care, I'll just continue to use the terrific auto-research mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mods/canidae/auto-research)

I was surprised to see something that was nearly completely finished being pulled for such "personal" reasons.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by nuhll » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:38 pm

In top 10 trending plugins is research quene mods... devs decide to not add it... wtf is this real life?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by nuhll » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:39 pm

chimeric10 wrote:Why not make the research queue an unlock for completing the game (available after first rocket launch)? This gives the players that have already finished and already know the research an option for queuing, but leaves the first time player something to do, like you state in your reasons for removing it entirely.

Personally I don't care, I'll just continue to use the terrific auto-research mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mods/canidae/auto-research)

I was surprised to see something that was nearly completely finished being pulled for such "personal" reasons.
Yeah, thats also what i suggested ATLEAST.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by zhree1 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:25 am

Hi folks,
As someone who loves this game and has played it for nearly 1000 hours, may I humbly ask you to please rethink your decision to scrap the research queue. The whole purpose of this game - and the main source of fun of it seems to be automation. Yes, I like to be in control of setting up the world to my exact specifications --but I love it when my trains work efficiently and my drones take over and build an entire blueprint for me. Why wouldn't I want to be able to add some technologies to a list and let the system report back to me when each one finishes and when it has started the next one? I liked someone's idea to make Research Queue a tech itself so that those who don't want it or need it could choose not to research it - and those that do will be pleased when they can worry about one less thing to micromanage. Perhaps permit players to choose a target technology as a goal and have the queue research all the interim techs until the goal is reached. If I want to get to trains as soon as I can, I should be able to select that tech and sit back and be alerted when I can build trains. You could be really nice and have these desired goals bundle together all the basics for trains (such as the signals and liquid cars).

While we're on the topic of micromanaging and improvements, I'd like to recommend some easy way (if there isn't already) of replacing old tech with new tech through blueprints maybe. So if I have an older part of my factory that still uses yellow belts and simple inserters I can substitute them all for blue belts and fast inserters quickly and easily. See, reducing the micromanaging is definitely a goal here.

Anyway, I just wanted to weigh in. You've created an excellent game that's quite a bit of fun and I'll continue to enjoy it even if you don't make this particular improvement. Cheers!

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:52 am

zhree1 wrote:Hi folks,
As someone who loves this game and has played it for nearly 1000 hours, may I humbly ask you to please rethink your decision to scrap the research queue.
It has been rethunk, see the latest FFF.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Grimshad » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:25 am

FINALLY! Filter by version on the mod portal. *whatever music you imagine playing in the background*

Much appreciated.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by JCav » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:48 am

Aside from anticipating an aesthetic overhaul of the technology tree, my primary complaint regarding research is actually the sequence of unlocking technologies.

There are technologies which can be researched before one understands the technology of its component parts. For example, one can understand how to build Power Armor, which requires Processing Units, without knowing how to build any Processing Units. It seems to me, that understanding PU's should be a prerequisite for understanding how to construct something with them.

Other than that, I am excited about the upcoming changes for .17.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:01 pm

JCav wrote:There are technologies which can be researched before one understands the technology of its component parts. For example, one can understand how to build Power Armor, which requires Processing Units, without knowing how to build any Processing Units. It seems to me, that understanding PU's should be a prerequisite for understanding how to construct something with them.
Guess, it is like with quantum computing. We got algorithms for them before we had the first working qubit. Or like Ada Lovelace who wrote programs before there where computers to run them.
I see Factorio's research more as an adaption process: Of course we know, how to do adavnced CPUs in theory - we are member of a spacefaring society and can craft universal assembling units in our pockets.
But we have to transfer this knowledge into practice. Luckily, we know how to automate that process without using any advanced electronics...

But you are right: The research tree is broken from a user's point of view. I probably have a thousand of hours in the game and it still is a mess for me when i start a new game. It is hard to see, what is actually needed to become able to build what. They really should fix that.
They probably have already planned to do so for 0.17 as that will be all about polishing, performance and usability...

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