Price change

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dasiro
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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:24 am

the idea just doesn't fit the company profile and player base. Sure you see it with other companies, but that's because they are driven by a money frenzy instead of delivering a good game. That's why a lot of times the first game of a startup is the best, anything after it is just about staying afloat. There are very few companies that continuously pump out good games, but I'm fine with that. Hard as it may sound, but I don't consider them as charities requiring constant donations and for sure Wube will resent that thought too and that's why they've had the same clear policy about the pricing: early access at a cheaper price, because you're getting an unfinished game that requires a lot of testing and bugfixing. Full price once final is in sight. No sales for quick bucks because it's price is right and not exaggerated like so many others. For the amount of gameplay hours everyone of us have already put in it's been already a bargain, as most of the $1 and $60 don't offer so much value.

Final example as to why I'm opposed to the subscription model: I've been playing sea block for hundreds of hours and idling for thousands. It has new entities a new goal, everything that would be worth an expansion (others call it DLC), except for the fact that it's free and based on a collection of mods. That scenario alone would've been marketable at the same price. but they want the game to live on mainly through the community, as fans will do the work for free and players are not forced to 1 single expansion idea of the developers

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:37 am

Nexarius wrote:I really don't care about the price change. I already have it and I don't need to buy it twice.
Correct!
But a new Factorio members only VIP club may be another breed from the same stall

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 am

dasiro wrote: I've been playing sea block for hundreds of hours and idling for thousands. It has new entities a new goal, everything that would be worth an expansion (others call it DLC), except for the fact that it's free and based on a collection of mods. That scenario alone would've been marketable at the same price. but they want the game to live on mainly through the community, as fans will do the work for free and players are not forced to 1 single expansion idea of the developers
This model works in a communist society (Lenin's Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost London 1922 / actually he owned nine - he claimed that according his political model every work in the UK would be entitled to one - for free) or a Kibbutz with no bills to pay or others pay your bills but not in the real world in a capitalistic theatre where you dwell in a shark tank where competition is the name of the game

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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:30 pm

do you have any idea what community/fan art/content is ? It's not a startup-strategy, but an EOD-strategy (End Of Development) for a game to continue past it's predefined life-cycle. This doesn't mean those creative minds are communists, nor is the company, in fact they are most likely to live in the capitalistic world just like you and me. For all we know they may even have daytime jobs in the same industry, but it's their way of giving back to the community, not cold hard cash, but gameplay, like they've received for that $20 or $30 they once spent.

I once started making LAN-party and games convention reviews, because I wanted to share that experience with other fans that weren't so lucky to get there. Apparently there was enough interest from the community that the company who owned the site started sending me out to cons and press-previews all over Europe and a friend of mine that started the same way even ended up having his own tv-show and his life as a fan changed to quitting his job and becoming a full-time reporter for over a decade now. This examples how fandom can change into that cold hard cash (for him) or just remain what it is (for me now). I'm perfectly happy with how things ended up for me, even without having earned a single cent with it over a period of multiple years.

I know communism doesn't work in the real world, that's why I know your capitalistic look on the gaming industry is one that will ultimately destroy the very same companies that have the same vision, because they won't give back and the fans will remember.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:31 pm

dasiro wrote: I know communism doesn't work in the real world, that's why I know your capitalistic look on the gaming industry is one that will ultimately destroy the very same companies that have the same vision, because they won't give back and the fans will remember.
You mean well but sorrily fell prey to the Dunning–Kruger effect
In the real world it is not sufficient that a developer /company to work like a mule, give back (to whom why, what for free?) and feel by that eternal happiness,
but he has also to pay his bills and dues.

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:56 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote: I've been playing sea block for hundreds of hours and idling for thousands. It has new entities a new goal, everything that would be worth an expansion (others call it DLC), except for the fact that it's free and based on a collection of mods. That scenario alone would've been marketable at the same price. but they want the game to live on mainly through the community, as fans will do the work for free and players are not forced to 1 single expansion idea of the developers
This model works in a communist society (Lenin's Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost London 1922 / actually he owned nine - he claimed that according his political model every work in the UK would be entitled to one - for free) or a Kibbutz with no bills to pay or others pay your bills but not in the real world in a capitalistic theatre where you dwell in a shark tank where competition is the name of the game
Have you ever tried being nice to the sharks? I've heard that they rarely kill people, and even less so without provocation. [1]
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:43 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote: I've been playing sea block for hundreds of hours and idling for thousands. It has new entities a new goal, everything that would be worth an expansion (others call it DLC), except for the fact that it's free and based on a collection of mods. That scenario alone would've been marketable at the same price. but they want the game to live on mainly through the community, as fans will do the work for free and players are not forced to 1 single expansion idea of the developers
This model works in a communist society (Lenin's Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost London 1922 / actually he owned nine - he claimed that according his political model every work in the UK would be entitled to one - for free) or a Kibbutz with no bills to pay or others pay your bills but not in the real world in a capitalistic theatre where you dwell in a shark tank where competition is the name of the game
Have you ever tried being nice to the sharks? I've heard that they rarely kill people, and even less so without provocation. [1]
One should never take a metaphor for real but for what it stands

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:42 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote: I've been playing sea block for hundreds of hours and idling for thousands. It has new entities a new goal, everything that would be worth an expansion (others call it DLC), except for the fact that it's free and based on a collection of mods. That scenario alone would've been marketable at the same price. but they want the game to live on mainly through the community, as fans will do the work for free and players are not forced to 1 single expansion idea of the developers
This model works in a communist society (Lenin's Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost London 1922 / actually he owned nine - he claimed that according his political model every work in the UK would be entitled to one - for free) or a Kibbutz with no bills to pay or others pay your bills but not in the real world in a capitalistic theatre where you dwell in a shark tank where competition is the name of the game
Have you ever tried being nice to the sharks? I've heard that they rarely kill people, and even less so without provocation. [1]
One should never take a metaphor for real but for what it stands
One should never take humor for real but for what it stands ;).
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:38 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote: I know communism doesn't work in the real world, that's why I know your capitalistic look on the gaming industry is one that will ultimately destroy the very same companies that have the same vision, because they won't give back and the fans will remember.
You mean well but sorrily fell prey to the Dunning–Kruger effect
In the real world it is not sufficient that a developer /company to work like a mule, give back (to whom why, what for free?) and feel by that eternal happiness,
but he has also to pay his bills and dues.
did you self diagnose or did we arrive at the point where one just starts flaming and the other just ignores it? in the first case: seek help, in the latter: I will be the bigger man (both physically and mentally) and stop this conversation as to not get this thread hijacked and keep it on topic

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:28 pm

dasiro wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
dasiro wrote: I know communism doesn't work in the real world, that's why I know your capitalistic look on the gaming industry is one that will ultimately destroy the very same companies that have the same vision, because they won't give back and the fans will remember.
You mean well but sorrily fell prey to the Dunning–Kruger effect
In the real world it is not sufficient that a developer /company to work like a mule, give back (to whom why, what for free?) and feel by that eternal happiness,
but he has also to pay his bills and dues.
did you self diagnose or did we arrive at the point where one just starts flaming and the other just ignores it? in the first case: seek help, in the latter: I will be the bigger man (both physically and mentally) and stop this conversation as to not get this thread hijacked and keep it on topic
No pun intended only robust argued - sorry boy - the discussion is anyhow highly academic as the devs will, as far as I think, not reconsider their decision.
Last edited by brunzenstein on Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Price change

Post by Oktokolo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:06 am

The recommendation of the highlevel Ferengi would probably work very well. Subsriptions could indeed be a working solution if you plan to work on the product for a long time after initial "completion". But i doubt, Wube has planned this. They worked on Factorio a long time already. They are pretty satisfied with their child as it is and probably only want to change some minor details, polish the GUI, improve performance (even more!) and balance some details.

They surely already have a lot of ideas what to create next and are eager to throw themselves at it. They then certainly will want to be able to focus completely on their new baby - unhindered by legal or moral obligations to still "improve something" on their old project. They will probably come back from time to time to add or tune something or fix a stealthy bug. But their next project will get the same priority that Factorio had the last years and still has.

Would we be able to convince them somehow to go all-in capitalist on Factorio, we would probably chain them mentally to it and they would never be able to fully focus on anything else again. They are not highlevel Ferengi. They would never be able to ignore the moral obligation to "do something" on the old project associated with the constant income flow, that the subscription model would get them.

I am happy that they will do another great game after this and that they are not Ubisoft or EA. I will continue to play Factorio and will probably make more small mods whenever i get the time to do so. Others have and will make bigger mods, so there will be ongoing development by the community.
And i eagerly await their next big thing.

@Wube: No pressure. But what is your next project? :P

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:47 am

Oktokolo wrote:The recommendation of the highlevel Ferengi would probably work very well. Subsriptions could indeed be a working solution if you plan to work on the product for a long time after initial "completion". But i doubt, Wube has planned this. They worked on Factorio a long time already. They are pretty satisfied with their child as it is and probably only want to change some minor details, polish the GUI, improve performance (even more!) and balance some details.

They surely already have a lot of ideas what to create next and are eager to throw themselves at it. They then certainly will want to be able to focus completely on their new baby - unhindered by legal or moral obligations to still "improve something" on their old project. They will probably come back from time to time to add or tune something or fix a stealthy bug. But their next project will get the same priority that Factorio had the last years and still has.

Would we be able to convince them somehow to go all-in capitalist on Factorio, we would probably chain them mentally to it and they would never be able to fully focus on anything else again. They are not highlevel Ferengi. They would never be able to ignore the moral obligation to "do something" on the old project associated with the constant income flow, that the subscription model would get them.

I am happy that they will do another great game after this and that they are not Ubisoft or EA. I will continue to play Factorio and will probably make more small mods whenever i get the time to do so. Others have and will make bigger mods, so there will be ongoing development by the community.
And i eagerly await their next big thing.

@Wube: No pressure. But what is your next project? :P
Exactly.
You are right on the mark.
Im pretty sure, it will happen as you have described the future of WUBE.

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Re: Price change

Post by Aeternus » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:40 am

Another thing to keep in mind is the lack of the ball-and-chain that is a major publisher. This is what killed many other studios. The publisher setting unreasonable demands that forces a game to become something players do not want. And then it kills the playerbase, the game dies unceremoniously, and the publisher shuts down the studio for nonperformance, then builds an el-cheapo cashgrab game based on the IP's brand name, milking the last bit of goodwill. For the most recent example see Visceral Studios (or Bioware, depending on when you read this... they're next on the chopping block after Anthem has failed).

Wube has none of that. The profits from the game go directly to them. This allows a more modest pricing model. $30 for this game is worth it. Keep the playable demo though, so players can get a taste of the game before buying.

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Re: Price change

Post by meganothing » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:03 pm

One also shouldn't underestimate the "long tail". A game that stays relevant (for example with mods and small updates, graphics refresh...) for a long time generates a constant stream of income that helps fund a game company. This is why Bethesda (who really isn't into giving out presents) has so much interest in keeping their old games relevant and with excellent mod support. They still sell their old games and get a steady revenue from them and even do refreshs. I'm sure they wouldn't do it if it didn't make commercial sense.

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Re: Price change

Post by Koub » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:33 pm

The only thing that worries me is the infrastructure the game needs to run, especially the mod portal. Well the game runs without the mod portal, but you get me, to experience the full experience with mod management integrated into the game, the mod portal has to be up. Hosting the mod portal will cost a regular and steady amound of money. At some time, this will become higher than the income the sales provide, and upkeeping it will become economically non profitable for WUBE. I wonder how this transition will be negociated.
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Re: Price change

Post by vampiricdust » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:55 pm

Koub wrote:The only thing that worries me is the infrastructure the game needs to run, especially the mod portal. Well the game runs without the mod portal, but you get me, to experience the full experience with mod management integrated into the game, the mod portal has to be up. Hosting the mod portal will cost a regular and steady amound of money. At some time, this will become higher than the income the sales provide, and upkeeping it will become economically non profitable for WUBE. I wonder how this transition will be negociated.
As long as the mods can be added manually, it won't really matter. Yeah, the in game adding of mods is really nice, but since the game requires reloading for mods anyways, it's not that big deal to go back to adding mods manually. It was super easy before and some games require a lot more work to add in mods.

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Re: Price change

Post by Oktokolo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:45 pm

Koub wrote:The only thing that worries me is the infrastructure the game needs to run, especially the mod portal.
Don't worry about the mod portal and multiplayer lobby. Finding someone making good models or textures is hard. But people who can code a decent web service and portal are much more easy to find. The entire Web economy always was a lot more open and accessible from the start than the artistic industries will ever be. We would probably even get email notification for new posts in our mods' support boards from the start.

The community would surely also find a way to get some coins together for hosting such a portal.

As the URLs are to be found as plain text in the executable, we could probably just replace them inplace with a small community "update" tool as long as they do not get longer (they are short but as that are the web services nobody needs to browse to by hand, the new domains could just be some ugly random chars).
Without the source, we would not need the update and logcollector services, because there would not be updates and no one would be able to do anything usefull with crash logs. The auth service would probably just accept any credentials you throw at it and therefore would be very simple.

And if they opensource all the stuff while abandoning it, they could as well just handover the services, forum and portals to the community.
That would be the best possible scenario for the community as it would inplicate removing the current limits on modding. We could change any core mechanic by altering the source.

Having said all that, i doubt that any of this happens in the next few years.
We just have to keep hosting our mods on Github with reasonably open licenses attached to them, so that in the worst case (bankruptcy of Wube or assimilation by a big publisher) all the good mods are readily available to be adopted by a community-driven portal. The game itself already is ultra-redundantly backed up by the warez folks. So if at some time Factorio becomes abandonware, people have another option for getting the core game.

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Re: Price change

Post by iznano4nik » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:36 am

Аt the moment the price increase is not justified. The game is very far from ideal. I want to say that the destruction of monsters is useless. Absolutely. If you cut them then the game will not change. The characteristics of the armor are meaningless. There is no element of survival. This is bad. Why are there no laboratories for fauna research? Why is there no "zoo" with cells? Why I cant send Biters into space and get special study points for even OP things?

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Re: Price change

Post by Oktokolo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:04 am

iznano4nik wrote:I want to say that the destruction of monsters is useless.
The bitters are just one aspect you have to manage to get your factory going. If you ignore them, they will rip you apart. They limit the time you have for researching military stuff and add a price tag to expansion.
Factorio does not want to be a shooter. That you can fully automate remote bitter base killing by use of auto-aiming artillery should make that point clear.
iznano4nik wrote:The characteristics of the armor are meaningless. There is no element of survival.
That is by design. Later armor is always better. Whenever a better armor gets available you upgrade and never go back. It is meant to be that way.

The game is quite modable and mods exist that make bitters more interesting and/or shift the game more towards beeing a tower defense or a shooter.

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Re: Price change

Post by dasiro » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:20 pm

iznano4nik wrote:Why are there no laboratories for fauna research? Why is there no "zoo" with cells? Why I cant send Biters into space and get special study points for even OP things?
because you didn't create a mod for it yet :twisted:

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