Price change

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fiery_salmon
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Re: Price change

Post by fiery_salmon » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:26 am

brunzenstein wrote:
fiery_salmon wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: The point is: If you see software as a lifelong free soup after you entered the restaurant once and payed for the initial soup only, then someone else has to pay for the rest or the restaurant closes down.
Are you aware that continuing to use client-only program on my computers is not costing its producer anything (and with updates cost is minimal - just filehosting)? Unlike soup, where every portion must be produced again?

Also, are you aware that Factorio devs are selling game for a single price with all future prices included? That is at least one example of competent devs deciding to follow this model.
Probably only for uncle Willis and aunt Annies personal homepage showing of her hand-paintings that might be true.
This amateurish thinking is sinking promising newcomer companies by the hundreds every day.
SW firms have to pay salary, legal fees, taxes, commissions, rents, hundreds of fees e.g. for fair attending, travel expenses and have a ton of other engagements to satisfy.
None of that is influences by how many players are active (for standalone games). There are some costs influenced by how many players are active (for Factorio that includes NAT-punching servers, forum upkeep, filehosting) but all are dwarfed by costs that you mentioned.

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Re: Price change

Post by meganothing » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:51 am

brunzenstein wrote: There are a lot of ideas of massive added value for Factorio in updated versions. Further worlds in which users may find themselves under water or on other planets without oxygen e.g. the possibilities are endless.
Yeah, and by making an extension or a Factorio 2.0 there are completely acceptable solutions that give them new revenue without alienating 80% of their customers.

Look around, a subscription model for single games is a highly unsuccessfull payment model, only a few MMOs like World of Warcraft succeeded in doing it. A niche game would further concentrate the player base to the few players who play Factorio for years on end without getting fed up. How many can that be? A few hundreds probably. A well received Factorio 2.0 or extension on the other hand would be probably bought by say half the current buyer base.

If I assume 3 years of development for an extension/2.0 and a sale price of 15 Euro, that would be 9 Mio. Euros. With 500 subscribers and 2 Euros per month Wube would get 36.000 Euros in the same time.

Sure, I had to estimate a lot of numbers, especially the number of willing subscribers. But you would need 125.000 sucscribers to get the 9 million from a subscritpion model. Doesn't sound likely to me.

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brunzenstein
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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:12 pm

meganothing wrote:
brunzenstein wrote: There are a lot of ideas of massive added value for Factorio in updated versions. Further worlds in which users may find themselves under water or on other planets without oxygen e.g. the possibilities are endless.
Yeah, and by making an extension or a Factorio 2.0 there are completely acceptable solutions that give them new revenue without alienating 80% of their customers.

Look around, a subscription model for single games is a highly unsuccessfull payment model, only a few MMOs like World of Warcraft succeeded in doing it. A niche game would further concentrate the player base to the few players who play Factorio for years on end without getting fed up. How many can that be? A few hundreds probably. A well received Factorio 2.0 or extension on the other hand would be probably bought by say half the current buyer base.

If I assume 3 years of development for an extension/2.0 and a sale price of 15 Euro, that would be 9 Mio. Euros. With 500 subscribers and 2 Euros per month Wube would get 36.000 Euros in the same time.

Sure, I had to estimate a lot of numbers, especially the number of willing subscribers. But you would need 125.000 sucscribers to get the 9 million from a subscritpion model. Doesn't sound likely to me.
Sounds, even you opinion is contrary to my idea, also kinda logic to me- I do not claim to have the ultimate wisdom.
One idea, I think unites us, even we see solutions and approaches from/to different angles, that WUBE should prosper with Factorio.
May the best idea survive.
Last edited by brunzenstein on Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jap2.0
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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:32 pm

From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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brunzenstein
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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:45 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
In the wording "this means that future updates to the core game" is the special usage of the wording "core game" ist the key why this allows for a subscription model an day.
The core game may be defined as 0.16 - got it?

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:10 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
In the wording "this means that future updates to the core game" is the special usage of the wording "core game" ist the key why this allows for a subscription model an day.
The core game may be defined as 0.16 - got it?
So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
In the wording "this means that future updates to the core game" is the special usage of the wording "core game" ist the key why this allows for a subscription model an day.
The core game may be defined as 0.16 - got it?
So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
Yes - but not to 1.0

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:17 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
In the wording "this means that future updates to the core game" is the special usage of the wording "core game" ist the key why this allows for a subscription model an day.
The core game may be defined as 0.16 - got it?
So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
Yes - but not to 1.0
1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:31 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:From the Terms of Service:

"
Possesion of the membership entitles you to all the updates to the digital content associated with this membership for free in the future. Specifically this means that future updates to the core game are for free. However this doesn't include any more significant products that we might release, such as a Factorio DLCs, Factorio 2, etc.
"

So they can in theory release DLC and stuff, but this prohibits them from using a subscription model.
In the wording "this means that future updates to the core game" is the special usage of the wording "core game" ist the key why this allows for a subscription model an day.
The core game may be defined as 0.16 - got it?
So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
Yes - but not to 1.0
1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
WUBE could declare 16.90 stable & core and thats it.

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote: So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
Yes - but not to 1.0
1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
WUBE could declare 16.90 stable & core and thats it.
Sure, but they couldn't offer future updates to it in a subscription model.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:47 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote: So with that reasoning, we're allowed future updates to 0.16.
Yes - but not to 1.0
1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
WUBE could declare 16.90 stable & core and thats it.
Sure, but they couldn't offer future updates to it in a subscription model.
Surely they can - there are a lot of legal ways to do so. A simple rename to Factorio VIP, or Factorio Platinum club would do

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Re: Price change

Post by Jap2.0 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:54 pm

brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote: 1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
WUBE could declare 16.90 stable & core and thats it.
Sure, but they couldn't offer future updates to it in a subscription model.
Surely they can - there are a lot of legal ways to do so. A simple rename to Factorio VIP, or Factorio Platinum club would do
They'd have to somehow argue that it's a new/different game, or that future updates are all DLC.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:04 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
brunzenstein wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote: 1.0 will be the stable version of one of those future updates, and I don't see how you could argue that it would not remain the core game.
WUBE could declare 16.90 stable & core and thats it.
Sure, but they couldn't offer future updates to it in a subscription model.
Surely they can - there are a lot of legal ways to do so. A simple rename to Factorio VIP, or Factorio Platinum club would do
They'd have to somehow argue that it's a new/different game, or that future updates are all DLC.
Thats not a problem at all - important is, that WUBE stays by any means financially afloat. If WUBE goes so goes Factorio.
Thats a point the cheap charlies usually looking for getting a super-duper deal saving a penny, overlook - they are the losers to suffer first through their own greediness.

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Re: Price change

Post by 5thHorseman » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:24 pm

Worth every penny, even that last one from $29.99 to $30.

It'd be worth 3,000 pennies more IMO.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:28 pm

5thHorseman wrote:Worth every penny, even that last one from $29.99 to $30.

It'd be worth 3,000 pennies more IMO.
True enough

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Re: Price change

Post by PaszaVonPomiot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:48 pm

Still too cheap for the value. :D

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Re: Price change

Post by Zool » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:49 pm

I now own the games for roughly 3 years, and its genious creativity is worth more the any of the „premium games“ I have bought in the same time. I‘m following the friday facts since #50 or so, and the devs have always been very honest and straight-forward in everything they said. I wish more people in the game-industry would be like them.

So I have no doubt that the price will go up to 30 buck, and only decline to like 25 or so like half a year later.

And instead of annoying us with costy mini-DLCs or subscription, they‘ll instead continue with free updates for a while and then present us a really well-made addon that will take our addiction even further ^^

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Re: Price change

Post by Omnifarious » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:21 am

Re: subscriptions...

I have regretted every single subscription I have ever paid for that wasn't a magazine. In particular, I've been outright angry with subscriptions that automatically re-up. Those are the tool of the devil.

Yes, I can understand the logic of a subscription model for software. No, I will never, ever participate in a subscription for software. And I consider software that asks for a subscription of any kind to be dead. As soon as the software owner has a means to extract rent from their customers, they will become a rent extraction machine, not a software company. If that means that Wube ends up dying and Factorio becomes unsupported, well that's still a heck of a lot better than the kind of evil undead revenant it would become when it became the beneficiary of subscription fees.

I know that from both being a customer of, and working inside of software companies. Companies that have subscription income almost invariably become complacent and actually afraid of innovation. This most especially includes subscriptions cloaked as royalties or licensing fees.

The only worse model than subscriptions for software is free-to-play. Though unlike subscriptions, it is possible to do free-to-play in a way that is reasonable, it's just that if you don't, it's horrible for customers. The number of free-to-play titles that actually are done well is miniscule. It takes an enormous amount of discipline on the part of a software company to not turn free-to-play into either pay-to-win or a form of gambling. The only company I've ever seen manage it is Valve, which is interesting and bizarre since they are run internally as an explicit anarchy.

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Re: Price change

Post by brunzenstein » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:55 am

Omnifarious wrote:Re: subscriptions...

I have regretted every single subscription I have ever paid for that wasn't a magazine.
Right - but look at my proposed subscription model:

Everything remains unchanged and current users can play Factorio as it stands today (and thats a very fine and refined product) upgraded if bugs should appear, in eternity for free.

The only difference is, that opting in to the Factorio VIP club entitles one to enjoy continued game enhancements (not only updates) and new worlds for a given yearly fee.
I think thats a fair deal keeping (nearly) every user happy by the same time securing the economic survival of Wube - and we all are interested in that ultimate goal, are we not?

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Re: Price change

Post by Nexarius » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:05 am

I really don't care about the price change. I already have it and I don't need to buy it twice.

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