Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

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Oktokolo
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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:26 pm

Gergely wrote:
ssilk wrote:Hm. I would lock it at page 100.
This is the 1000th post!
We are halfway there.
I doubt, that this thread will ever be a 100 pages long.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Unclebod » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:41 pm

Pascali wrote:Yes, i don´t like them. They shoud be nerft. And not be available before 200 hours of gameplay. In Minecraft there is a creative-mode for this kind of playstyle. But i mentioned them because of the allegedly build-malus of solar-engeryfields, which are needet for bots. The fields are build in seconds.
There is a big difference between a creative mode (and Factorio also have one...) and using bots is that when you use construction bots you still need to produce everything they are going to place. In a creative mode you just have unlimited resources.

And having the infra structure to supply a couple of thousands of solar panels in just seconds means that you have quite a production capacity.

Another thing, claiming that something should be nerfed just because you don't like it is the worst reason you can give. Don't like them? Don't use them. Nothing in the game forces you to it.

/UncleBod
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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Unclebod wrote:
Pascali wrote: Another thing, claiming that something should be nerfed just because you don't like it is the worst reason you can give. Don't like them? Don't use them. Nothing in the game forces you to it.
That´s the basic of this board and many states(and i am living in one of this states). But i can make it more clear.

Yes, it´s non weighted such a few solar to have bots doing alle the stuff. Thats bad, and it´s not fun to play. The puzzling-effect is lost where i get into the game. And to easy to build the solar, too(with bots again).

Exactly the same the creative-mode for minecraft aren´t the bots. But it´s going strong into the corner.

Simply not using them can be a problem in multiplayer. It´s more easy to have an option. And an option can be bad too, because the programmers have to create 2 different games. That is very costintensive. But for me, it would be o.k., if bots are only possible in creative-mode. I would be very nice, if bots in normal-mode could work for some fabric-setups, cause of having the fun of thinking about the bots and how they work although in the normal game. But only for some - otherwise they are killing to much fun.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Alice3173 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:24 pm

Pascali wrote:Yes, i don´t like them. They shoud be nerft. And not be available before 200 hours of gameplay. In Minecraft there is a creative-mode for this kind of playstyle. But i mentioned them because of the allegedly build-malus of solar-engeryfields, which are needet for bots. The fields are build in seconds.
????????

Why the hell would you make something unavailable until sinking nearly ten freaking days of playtime into a single game? I have a hard time believing you're not a troll saying something that idiotic.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:41 pm

Because it´s more challanging. And so you have both - a time without bots and a time with (nerft bots - only workling together with some fabrics). I like to play multiplayer. And there is a bit a challange-feeling. So if you have bots to early, you won´t invest many time in funny belt-setups. Just doing science up quickly to get bots. Because without doing it so, you will have massive disadantages - in early game already.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Alice3173 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:17 pm

Pascali wrote:Because it´s more challanging. And so you have both - a time without bots and a time with (nerft bots - only workling together with some fabrics). I like to play multiplayer. And there is a bit a challange-feeling. So if you have bots to early, you won´t invest many time in funny belt-setups. Just doing science up quickly to get bots. Because without doing it so, you will have massive disadantages - in early game already.
I reiterate: TEN DAYS OF GAMEPLAY. Sunk into one single game. BEFORE even having access to bots. That's completely absurd in the extreme. Even in my slowest games I reach rocket level around 150-170 hours.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:57 pm

Yes - with bots. And i we are using hardest game-mode. And fighting each other and prevent from beeing attacked from the other. And max using 2 science-centrums.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Zavian » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:02 pm

Pascali wrote:Because it´s more challanging. And so you have both - a time without bots and a time with (nerft bots - only workling together with some fabrics). I like to play multiplayer. And there is a bit a challange-feeling. So if you have bots to early, you won´t invest many time in funny belt-setups. Just doing science up quickly to get bots. Because without doing it so, you will have massive disadantages - in early game already.
It's not challenging, it's just a tedious delay in dispensing of gameplay mechanics. It would effectively mean that many vanilla players would play the entire game without ever building any bots. (Lots of players don't even launch a rocket, many that do launch a rocket, will either quit immediately or play on long enough to finish the some of the non-infinite space science research. If you want to argue that requestor/buffer/storage chests shouldn't be available before space science then you could probably make a reasonable case for that, but suggesting players need to sink 200 hours into a single factorio factory before unlocking bots is almost equivalent to suggesting that bots be removed from the main game, and only be available in modded games.

You already need lube + red circuits + batteries to make logistics bots, and need 5 of the science flasks including high-tech and production science to research requestor/buffer/storage chests. So you are already basically at the stage where most of your pre-rocket launch factory is already built before you get logistics bots able to do anything other than supply the player.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Zavian » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:17 pm

Pascali wrote:Yes - with bots. And i we are using hardest game-mode. And fighting each other and prevent from beeing attacked from the other. And max using 2 science-centrums.
PvP is not a core game mode. And artificially limiting your selves to "2 science-centrums" (2 labs?) is also not part of the standard factorio gameplay. Now it's fine to play that way if you wish, but the game design needs to consider that factorio is primarily a single player game, and the main multiplayer game mode is co-operative. Now if you want to play PvP, and apply artificial limits to slow down progression, that's fine, but changes to when bots are available for vanilla single player and co-op games, need to actually be designed to work in single player and co-op games. For people like yourself, who want to play something different, you can always add a mod or a scenario that tweaks gameplay to whatever you want.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:28 am

factorio is multiplayergame, too. For me, its the one and only part. That the labs-maximum can´t be set is o.k. But that you can build such powerful bots and so early in the game is not. It steal the fun to build and watch belts. If i would play single-player i wouldn´t like it, too. You get robbed your belting fun. And if the game is optimized that way, you will build bots. And because they are so powerful, you will build them as quick as possible. You are alway in a little multiplayer with the gamedesign and with other players in the world, which are playing the same game. You always do compare, even if you don´t play in the same match...

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Alice3173 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:39 am

Pascali wrote:And because they are so powerful, you will build them as quick as possible.
If you have zero self control or want to use them, yes. But if you don't want to use them, guess what? You have the choice to not use them.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:50 am

It has to do with human social aspacts and less with self-control. And if the programmers have to build 2 games, it´s a lot of waste of time and money. So they should add bots(bots make some fun, too), but only for some setups, and lately in game. 20% fabrics - possible, 30% possible with malus, 50% not possible. In this way both - bots and belts are adequate in the game.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Zavian » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:17 am

I often play games where my base is mostly belts. I'll still use construction bots, and typically use logistics bots for things like supplying the outpost train, and burning excess wood, but pretty much everything else will be belt based. I've got no objection to moving bots to require space science, if that is what the developers want, but locking them behind an arbitrary 200 hour requirement isn't an appropriate choice. It will just mean almost everybody who isn't playing vanilla will use a mod to get them earlier, because most people who expands their base after the first rocket launch will want at least construction bots, plus enough logistics bots to be able to supply the player, unload and deal with trash from a construction train etc.

It's fine that you are playing factorio PvP, but personally I have zero interest in PvP. (I never play PvP games. I play some of those types of game against AI players, but never against real people). Btw if I'm playing a map to 200 hours, I expect I'm launching over 30 rockets per hour, and have done over 1,000,000 space science research, by the time my games get to 200 hours.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Pascali » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:53 am

Bots for bringing tools to the player should be o.k., but not for all fabrics. I actually play a game in coop wich lasts over 200 hours. We have launched no rocket. Our goal is to play, not to "win" the game. And we don´t have any bot build until yet. And yes - only 2 science-buildings. Hardest settings, of course.

With bots the game is more like watching a movie. I don´t hope, there comes a superpatch, where bots 2.0 are integrated who can beam all things around the map in less then 1 second. Or bots who can automatically download best voted blueprints and building them.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by 5thHorseman » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:37 am

Pascali wrote:With bots the game is more like watching a movie.
That depends on what you consider "the game" to be. You consider it to be placing the items. I consider it to be designing the factory.

I would actually personally prefer Factorio had a "Prison Architect" type mode, where you were not a person at all but just placed things. Construction bots would then either be useless outside of repair and reconstruction, or ubiquitous from the start as you placed blueprints and ghosts for *everything*.

I'm not saying you should play this way. I'm saying don't force your way on me.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Gergely » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:32 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Gergely wrote:
ssilk wrote:Hm. I would lock it at page 100.
This is the 1000th post!
We are halfway there.
I doubt, that this thread will ever be a 100 pages long.
If this rate keeps up, (about 6-7 posts a day) then it fills up in about 20 weeks. Not that much of a time really.
Oh wait... there are way more than 7 posts a day.

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Re: Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

Post by Koub » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm

[Koub] This topic has seriously derailed, and I didn't see anything new suggested for a long time - which was unlikely to happen anyways after literally more than a hundred pages on the subject since the beginning of the belts vs bots shitstorm. I guess it's time to say bye bye to this and go forwards.
Locking the topic
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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