Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

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MrGrim
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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by MrGrim » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:22 pm

You're right we got use to it. This wasn't some unintended behavior like inserting into underground belts. This was a front and center feature showed off in a previous FFF and one of the defining features of vanilla tankers vs the prior popular modded ones. Of _course_ we got use to it.

If you want to nerf capacity, then reduce the capacity per tank (though .. should probably nerf barrels then as well, and my 4 wagon crude trains only last 15 seconds when my factory is at full speed).
If you want to avoid dealing with the UI code, the community presented a a couple of nice compromises; always keep the tanks separated or create a single large capacity single tank wagon.

Unfortunately my use case for fluid wagons with separate tanks cannot be solved by adding more wagons. I need 14 independent tanks in the space of 5 rail cars to evenly feed 7 rows of heat exchangers with water. Maybe esoteric, maybe not common, but it's an example of a use that doesn't have a solution otherwise. Give people a creative option, and they'll find a creative use.

I know it's not meant this way, but this feels like a slap in the face. Nobody had any hint this feature was on the chopping block, that we shouldn't get use to it, and the original reporter of the bug in the UI sure wasn't intending to get the entire feature scrapped.

... also inserters shouldn't be able to compress belts. :D At that point you might as well go all in on quantized belts. I want shed too many tears if this gets implemented, but it does sap a lot of the fun out of belt designs by trivializing them. It feels like perfect compression using a "dumb" inserter arm should be a little bit difficult, like with those perfectly timed designs that run all of the inserters on a precisely timed clock.
Last edited by MrGrim on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Gully » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:37 pm

Hi,

glad to here all of that. Train fixes, optional bufferchest settings, that all deserves a thumps-up.

One more opinion on the sideloading belt-compression thingy. I use to build earlygame-sorters like these:

Image

I don't really care if sideloading compresses a belt. But I fear that if sideloading compresses, this setup might start to block. (the "circle" belt keeps running if it's not compressed, and it needs to run in order for the sorter to work). If the circle is compressed and stops, the whole thing doesn't start again.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by ili » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:40 pm

Image

sicklag
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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by sicklag » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:47 pm

.
Last edited by sicklag on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Tendies4meplz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 pm

I still have some arguments questions regarding the fluid wagon I'd like to see """destroyed""".
Like why anyone would think "If it didn't exist you wouldn't want it" is in any way a meaningful statement.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by TheRaph » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:00 am

MrGrim wrote:You're right we got use to it. This wasn't some unintended behavior like inserting into underground belts. This was a front and center feature showed off in a previous FFF and one of the defining features of vanilla tankers vs the prior popular modded ones. Of _course_ we got use to it.

If you want to nerf capacity, then reduce the capacity per tank (though .. should probably nerf barrels then as well, and my 4 wagon crude trains only last 15 seconds when my factory is at full speed).
If you want to avoid dealing with the UI code, the community presented a a couple of nice compromises; always keep the tanks separated or create a single large capacity single tank wagon.

Unfortunately my use case for fluid wagons with separate tanks cannot be solved by adding more wagons. I need 14 independent tanks in the space of 5 rail cars to evenly feed 7 rows of heat exchangers with water. Maybe esoteric, maybe not common, but it's an example of a use that doesn't have a solution otherwise. Give people a creative option, and they'll find a creative use.

I know it's not meant this way, but this feels like a slap in the face. Nobody had any hint this feature was on the chopping block, that we shouldn't get use to it, and the original reporter of the bug in the UI sure wasn't intending to get the entire feature scrapped.

... also inserters shouldn't be able to compress belts. :D At that point you might as well go all in on quantized belts. I want shed too many tears if this gets implemented, but it does sap a lot of the fun out of belt designs by trivializing them. It feels like perfect compression using a "dumb" inserter arm should be a little bit difficult, like with those perfectly timed designs that run all of the inserters on a precisely timed clock.
Fully agree to that.
Also the inserter not compressing thing.

But as for now I will avoid using fluid wagons anymore. I've started my 4th map with goal of kilobase (one rocket in 4 mins) with release of 0.16. I started on railway map and I love the new features introduced with 0.16. Originally I planed to have outpost with a different purpose for each. I had decided to have some trains 1/1 with 3 different types of oil/gas . But this doesn't make any sense now. So I'll switch to barrels now. There are more pros (more fluid per wagon, different fluids in one wagon, higher speed) than cons (mess around with full and empty barrels).

Enjoy your free time ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by TheRaph » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:06 am

Gully wrote:Hi,

glad to here all of that. Train fixes, optional bufferchest settings, that all deserves a thumps-up.

One more opinion on the sideloading belt-compression thingy. I use to build earlygame-sorters like these:

Image

I don't really care if sideloading compresses a belt. But I fear that if sideloading compresses, this setup might start to block. (the "circle" belt keeps running if it's not compressed, and it needs to run in order for the sorter to work). If the circle is compressed and stops, the whole thing doesn't start again.
If it will be the same type of compression as before 0.16 it will not block.
Nice map. What mod is it?

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Rhamphoryncus » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:33 am

It'll be nice to see "putting items on belts" as the core feature it is, rather than an accident of how the original inserters were implemented. If you didn't want them to compress you should just cut the belt throughput in half and otherwise make it consistent.

For fluid tanks.. you can't "use two separate wagons". Bidirectional trains (used largely for the sake of pathfinder traps) require symmetry so rather than 2 fluid tankers you'd now need 6 fluid tankers. Then again bidirectional trains have always had the huge performance penalty, there's clearly a dislike there that I've never understood.

I've seen and wondered about the train stopping bug but I just assumed it was intentional somehow. :lol:

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by mcvey » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:49 am

Consider this, Fluid wagons currently hold 75k fluid which can be separated into up to three different types. Cargo wagons with barrels can hold 100k fluid in up to 40 varieties. Back in 0.12 a practical wagon would be half full and half empty barrels, meaning that on a practical level it is easy to use 50k fluid in a wagon. A single storage tank holds only 25k fluid. I can understand removing the separation but reducing capacity to any lower than 50k would render it useless on a practical level. It might still still see use for some low capacity hauls, but nothing more. In order to make it equal to storage tank, it will require either rebalancing a storage tank, or rebalancing the barrels. This opens up the storage tank vs chest argument though.
Inserters compressing belts is a little weird, but go ahead and test it and tell us what you think.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Zavian » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:59 am

You can easily manage a full 100k of fluid in a cargo wagon. You just need to make sure you can always unload all the empty barrels, and always load a load a full load of filled barrels.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by ThorsDragon » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:00 am

Amazing work, as always guys!!! I love the train attention!! :D

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Serenity » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:25 am

1.) Inserter compression could be limited to stack inserters maybe
2.) Miners should definitely compress. That they don't is very annoying at the moment
3.) The fluid could really use some balance against a wagon full of barrels. It makes no sense that you can barrel more than in a tank. And the weight of the car is a real issue if you need multiple liquids on a train. Even at twice the weight of a normal wagon a 1-3-1 is the same weight as a 1-6-1 of cargo wagons

And please, please add that filter for storage chests. No reason not to have that :)
Last edited by Serenity on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Dry Hairy Tree » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:00 am

Well done on the nomination. Well placed in the category, and well deserved. I played a couple of those other games just to fill in time waiting for 0.16.

"Haunts My Dreams" - Sitting on a pristine beach eating lamb and drinking cider while wishing I was home playing Factorio. :D

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Mylon » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:25 am

TheRaph wrote: Nice map. What mod is it?
That would be dangOreus. One of my mods.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by stretch611 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:32 am

sicklag wrote:
Tigre Demon wrote:WE won't let the "the giants of the industry" win this award !
Those "giants" are slowly dying, they have no fresh wind in their sailes.

Thanks for the news. Guys keep calm, enjoy your freetime with family and co.
I agree... the "giants of the industry" have no fresh ideas, and only rehash ideas already beaten to death. It is quite disheartening to see all the big giants dominate the awards, many indies never had a chance.

I nominated Factorio for "haunts my dreams", I plan on voting for it too. Factorio is deserving of the award and I hope it gets it.

The indies bring innovation to the industry... It would be nice to see them be recognized.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by bk5115545 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:15 am

So um for keeping requester chests above buffer chests in priority couldn't you just add requester chests to the front of the "unsatisfied" list and add buffers to the end?

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by golfmiketango » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:55 am

ili wrote:Image
8-)

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by Carl » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:27 am

mcvey wrote:Consider this, Fluid wagons currently hold 75k fluid which can be separated into up to three different types. Cargo wagons with barrels can hold 100k fluid in up to 40 varieties. Back in 0.12 a practical wagon would be half full and half empty barrels, meaning that on a practical level it is easy to use 50k fluid in a wagon. A single storage tank holds only 25k fluid. I can understand removing the separation but reducing capacity to any lower than 50k would render it useless on a practical level. It might still still see use for some low capacity hauls, but nothing more. In order to make it equal to storage tank, it will require either rebalancing a storage tank, or rebalancing the barrels. This opens up the storage tank vs chest argument though.
Inserters compressing belts is a little weird, but go ahead and test it and tell us what you think.
Honestly non-brrel based storage is mostly broken, outside of power production there's just zero reason to use any form of tanks atm. Barrels are just superior in every way that matters.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by daydev » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:38 am

I just wanted to add another voice to the opinion already expressed by others: if you want to reduce the fluid wagon capacity, which I'm not too opposed to, it kinda makes sense for the reasons you specified, you should definitely nerf barrels. Otherwise it would be ridiculous: four times more capacity with barrels which logically should be highly inefficient way to store and transport liquids compared to tanks. My suggestion would be 100 liquid per barrel, and barrels only stacking to 5.

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Re: Friday Facts #222 - Christmas avalanche

Post by rldml » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:54 am

daydev wrote:I just wanted to add another voice to the opinion already expressed by others: if you want to reduce the fluid wagon capacity, which I'm not too opposed to, it kinda makes sense for the reasons you specified, you should definitely nerf barrels. Otherwise it would be ridiculous: four times more capacity with barrels which logically should be highly inefficient way to store and transport liquids compared to tanks. My suggestion would be 100 liquid per barrel, and barrels only stacking to 5.
I feel the same. Nobody would use fluid waggons just because they look nice. Give them an advantage against the "barrels in a standard waggon".

With this suggestion i risk my life because everyone will hate me: Just remove barrels from the game - Since the entry of the fluid waggon there is no need for them (the main problem in earlier versions were the missing ability to transports fluids over long distances), now they are typical content for a mod.

And a second little suggestion: I can accept, that you remove features of the game because of reason. I believe that a lot of people wouldn't have problems with that, when you add a mod with the removed content. So everyone who wants the feature can still uses them with the help of a mod...

Have nice holidays :)
Last edited by rldml on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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