Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby LemonyFresh » Tue May 23, 2017 6:53 pm

Twinsen wrote:We had many discussions about improving the crafting queue, including special shortcut to queue to front. After long thoughts I have strong feelings against improving the crafting queue like this, for an important reason: it won't force you to automate. If you were able to queue to front many players will act as walking assembling machines, constantly crafting things, since it would be an efficient way to play. I very often see new players spend many minutes crafting green science packs, sometimes even waiting there until their hand crafting is finished. Adding queue to front will only aggravate this problem. By making it annoying the way it is now, it forces new players to think "if only there was a way to do this easier...".


I have a strong criticism about this, but before I rage about that I want to express a real appreciation to Twinsen for reading all 16 pages of this topic. It means a lot to know we're being heard.

Ok so... you already gave the player the ability to be a walking assembling machine, and a fast one at that. It IS an efficient way to play, and many players ALREADY act as walking assembling machines, no "would" about it. (Watch any speedrun video, for instance AntiElitz at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6ybxDx8kOY). So why are you criticizing players for using the resource that you intentionally gave them? If you want the crafting queue to be less useful, then by all means make it less useful by slowing it down, making more things uncraftable, or designing other limitations. However, the "limitation" you have in mind (no queue to front) is purely ineffective because you can easily get around it: just cancel everything, make stuff, then add it back afterwards. No penalty currently exists for doing this, other than an annoying number of clicks. When people ask for a queue-to-front feature, all they are asking for is to make the UI easier by getting rid of some of those clicks.

Your example with the green science packs doesn't make sense either. If a player is willing to just wait for crafting to finish, then they're willing to wait whether or not "queue to front" is available. Frankly, the game already forces you to automate because of basic math that I need not explain. Some players might procrastinate on the automation, but if you think this is a real problem worth addressing, then the best way to address it would be to have more in-game hints intended to help these new/lazy players. As an aside, it's quite possible that the player you observed "just sitting there" was actually trying to think of a good way to design the factory, but not doing anything much in-game because that thought process was taking all their attention.

In summary, I think that "queue to front" is a feature that would make the game better and more fun overall, and your choice to specifically not include it is a mistake. If you read my earlier post, my opinion is that queue-to-front should simply be the way the queue always works (so crafting is a stack, not a queue). No need for a "special shortcut". This feature doesn't matter to new players, because new players are not thinking about the best way to manage their crafting queue, they are thinking about more basic things like "WTF WHY IS MY REFINERY NOT GOING?!!" On the other hand, it would actively help intermediate and advanced players, because these players understand that Factorio is all about building lots and lots of automated factories: queue-to-front would just make it (slightly) easier and more fun to build them.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby BlackKnight » Tue May 23, 2017 8:04 pm

mophydeen wrote:a way to set/remember/store the recipe of a machine before it's unlocked.
- in blueprints
- in ghosts
- in active machines


I've often wondered about this too. Personally I think what is placeable should be limited by research to limit confusion... IMO. Ref to Klonans op. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=45012
Similar to your question - Should ghosted items be configurable even before they're placed? Some might say no but as it is, you can make blueprints from ghosts .. so it would certainly be useful and not push the boundaries too much. And obviously blueprints can save per item settings.

An issue in the game now is using the pipette tool on a ghost (or selecting the item from your inventory) and placing that (same) item over its ghost clears all settings that ghost had.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby gghf » Tue May 23, 2017 8:08 pm

LemonyFresh wrote:In summary, I think that "queue to front" is a feature that would make the game better and more fun overall, and your choice to specifically not include it is a mistake. If you read my earlier post, my opinion is that queue-to-front should simply be the way the queue always works (so crafting is a stack, not a queue). No need for a "special shortcut". This feature doesn't matter to new players, because new players are not thinking about the best way to manage their crafting queue, they are thinking about more basic things like "WTF WHY IS MY REFINERY NOT GOING?!!" On the other hand, it would actively help intermediate and advanced players, because these players understand that Factorio is all about building lots and lots of automated factories: queue-to-front would just make it (slightly) easier and more fun to build them.


I actually very much agree with LemonyFresh here.

Unfortunately, this is very much an arbitrary decision the devs need to make. Where one guys says "a", another says "b". There is no one correct way to go about it, because I very much understand Twinsen's opinion, even if I (arbitrarily) don't share it. I suggest a poll. Get more information with a dedicated thread or mention it in the next FF, then eventually make an educated decision, that relies on much more brain power than just 4 or 5 people.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby mrvn » Tue May 23, 2017 8:15 pm

drewtop wrote:+1 for a "Last Crafted" slot

or maybe just a full toolbar that's a last crafted queue.


How about a switch to craft what you ghost?
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby mophydeen » Tue May 23, 2017 8:37 pm

mrvn wrote:
drewtop wrote:+1 for a "Last Crafted" slot

or maybe just a full toolbar that's a last crafted queue.


How about a switch to craft what you ghost?


What about using the pipet tool while holding nothing on no object/entity -> get the last crafted item in the cursor
BlackKnight wrote:...
An issue in the game now is using the pipette tool on a ghost (or selecting the item from your inventory) and placing that (same) item over its ghost clears all settings that ghost had.


It sucks indeed. I added a few lines of code to sl-extended to fix this.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Ulrich » Tue May 23, 2017 11:51 pm

All of these changes come together to solve one of my biggest annoyances with the character screen: inventory transferring. Shift-clicking an item in my inventory transfers it where? To the logistic trash slots? To the quickbar? To the equipment slots? I never know and with the exception of ammo it never seems to go where I want.


I just want to chime in after my measly 470 hours of play that this right here is one of the main selling points with the UI change to using tabs. This will also help immensely with some mods that have extended-out inventories -- hiding chunks of inventory like the logistics section behind tabs saves screen space and keeps everything tucked away nice and tidy. Everything else, like the "useless items, useless counts -> useful items, useful counts" is just icing on the cake. Loving this idea, and really hope it gets implemented!
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Alice3173 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:11 am

gghf wrote:I actually very much agree with LemonyFresh here.

Unfortunately, this is very much an arbitrary decision the devs need to make. Where one guys says "a", another says "b". There is no one correct way to go about it, because I very much understand Twinsen's opinion, even if I (arbitrarily) don't share it. I suggest a poll. Get more information with a dedicated thread or mention it in the next FF, then eventually make an educated decision, that relies on much more brain power than just 4 or 5 people.

I agree with LemonyFresh as well. I kinda disagree with your second paragraph however. What's being suggested here is actually a bad example for what you're saying there because the existence of a "queue to front" function doesn't negatively impact those who don't want it in any way. But it being left out does negatively affect those who want it. And it really would be useful. For example I'll frequently leave some stuff crafting in my inventory (I always keep some materials on me in case I didn't grab enough of X building and such) while navigating but if I need something right now (ie: unexpectedly running out of durability on your pick because you weren't keeping a close enough eye on it) then I either have to wait for the crafting to finish or cancel it, craft what I need, then repopulate my queue.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Millefleur » Wed May 24, 2017 12:28 am

I like much of the proposed changes, several hundred hours in I find a lot of the things mentioned in the FF irritating.
There are a couple of details I'm not so keen on though:

First, +1 to keeping weapons/ammo display pretty much as it is: when I need that info, I NEED it!

Second, I always have at least one spot on my toolbar clear, not so much for 'last crafted' (I went for lazy bastard on my second ever game, and it got me in good automating habits lol) but for 'that thing I just mined up to move'. I use it extensively when I'm rejigging a section of factory and something like a pump or a train stop needs moving one or two squares to fit new stuff in. So whilst I'm more than happy for all toolbar slots to be shortcuts, I'd like any that don't have a filter applied to be automatic shortcuts to whatever things were last added to your inventory, whether by crafting or being mined up or being returned to your inventory from the cursor.

And one thing that drives me totally nuts: (If this has changed in .15, good!) Why doesn't the key that opens my inventory also close it?? Why? It goes like this: Hit key to open inventory, click thing I want, hit same key to close inventory. This takes less than a second. But nothing happens, hit the key again, still nothing, dither until I realise I have to hit a different key. This takes much longer. Perhaps by now my muscle memory should have cured this, but it's fighting a losing battle against the muscle memory from every other game I've ever played in the the history of ever, which tells me that that key toggles my inventory open and closed. Please make it be so!

Anyway, I'm waiting with bated breath for .15 to go stable to make the jump and enjoy all the new fluffy goodness inside, so thanks for a fabulous game and for the effort you put into responding to feedback from your players.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby digitalbeing » Wed May 24, 2017 12:44 am

I am very much in favor of the described inventory improvements, my friends & I had all come to the conclusion very early on in our experience (started with 0.13) that we felt the quickbar should be shortcuts only.

Count me also as in favor of converting the crafting queue to a crafting stack.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby gghf » Wed May 24, 2017 1:33 pm

Alice3173 wrote:
gghf wrote:I actually very much agree with LemonyFresh here.

Unfortunately, this is very much an arbitrary decision the devs need to make. Where one guys says "a", another says "b". There is no one correct way to go about it, because I very much understand Twinsen's opinion, even if I (arbitrarily) don't share it. I suggest a poll. Get more information with a dedicated thread or mention it in the next FF, then eventually make an educated decision, that relies on much more brain power than just 4 or 5 people.

I agree with LemonyFresh as well. I kinda disagree with your second paragraph however. What's being suggested here is actually a bad example for what you're saying there because the existence of a "queue to front" function doesn't negatively impact those who don't want it in any way. But it being left out does negatively affect those who want it. And it really would be useful. For example I'll frequently leave some stuff crafting in my inventory (I always keep some materials on me in case I didn't grab enough of X building and such) while navigating but if I need something right now (ie: unexpectedly running out of durability on your pick because you weren't keeping a close enough eye on it) then I either have to wait for the crafting to finish or cancel it, craft what I need, then repopulate my queue.

For the same reasons you state, I would personally prefer to be able to move an item to the front of the crafting queue. If it behaved like a stack normally, with the option to queue something at the end instead, that would be ideal. Maybe if you could even just drag and drop items back and forth in the queue. The only issue with this sort of change that I can think of, is even less of an incentive to automate production of almost everything.
HOWEVER! I do not believe that using a bad hand crafting system is the right way to go about making players get used to automation. It would be far more beneficial to reward players for automation - say, Early Game Robots when automating red science, basic belts, and maybe basic ammunition, stone furnaces and green circuits. Add or replace any of these with pipes / underground pipes, etc. if doing the combination of starter automation takes too long. Reward with awesome cosmetics for completing the Lazy Bastard achievement.
Anything but punish the player for not automating stuff, basically. The guy with 400h+ of game time isn't at fault, that the new player hasn't figured out how to do early automation. And come to that, neither is the newbie. In fact, it's really the developer's fault, for not providing the right incentive to get the player thinking about this stuff early on.

In the end though, Alice3173, the question is not who wants what, or doesn't want what, but if something is healthy for the game. And that is the reason why I suggested a poll, or making it an item in the next FF, because there might be ramifications we can't think of just yet. Maybe somebody else comes up with a serious problem that needs discussion.

Millefleur wrote:First, +1 to keeping weapons/ammo display pretty much as it is: when I need that info, I NEED it!

Second, I always have at least one spot on my toolbar clear, not so much for 'last crafted' (I went for lazy bastard on my second ever game, and it got me in good automating habits lol) but for 'that thing I just mined up to move'. I use it extensively when I'm rejigging a section of factory and something like a pump or a train stop needs moving one or two squares to fit new stuff in. So whilst I'm more than happy for all toolbar slots to be shortcuts, I'd like any that don't have a filter applied to be automatic shortcuts to whatever things were last added to your inventory, whether by crafting or being mined up or being returned to your inventory from the cursor.

And one thing that drives me totally nuts: (If this has changed in .15, good!) Why doesn't the key that opens my inventory also close it?? Why? It goes like this: Hit key to open inventory, click thing I want, hit same key to close inventory.


I fully agree on the weapons thing. Either keep it as it is (pretty it up, maybe), or make its visibility behave in a 100% sensible way, that requires no extra attention via mouse-clicks and such. I can't think of a good way off the top of my head, so I'd just suggest to have it stay the way it currently is.

I think we need toolbar filters that encompass all kinds of a kind. Such as any ore, any fuel, etc., with a priority setting (coal over wood...). That would really make things easier.

The inventory toggle has been added. :)
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Chumfactor » Wed May 24, 2017 2:17 pm

Love the proposed changes. One small thing...

On the inventory/speedbar thing, especially when 1st starting a new game, I like that newly manufactured stuff shows up on my speedbar. As I grow from slow track to medium, from burning inserters to electric to fast, it's nice that the new thing shows in my speed bar, where it's easy to replace the old filter with a new one.

So my suggestion is: some sort of handy GUI to keep "upgrades" working.

NOTE: For me, anyway, there's also a point when I'm using slow inserters (fewer resources = "cheaper") for things that take a long time, and fast inserters for fast things, so I often run both. Up & down in the same speed-bar column is my preference. (Inserters go in (3) :) )
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Nemoricus » Wed May 24, 2017 3:46 pm

Queue to front wouldn't remove the need or desire to automate. It's still a single item crafting slot, which means that automation is necessary for parallel production of items. It's also tedious to keep manually queuing items.

That said, I'm dubious about the need for queue to front. Yes, it's handy to be able to put something at the front of the crafting queue, but shouldn't players be automating any crafting that they can afford to leave in the background?
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby o6dukeleto » Wed May 24, 2017 5:11 pm

Replacing "inventory" toolbar with shortcut toolbar - GOOD!

Tabbed interface hiding information and needing multiple shortcuts to see all information - BAD!
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby BurnHard » Wed May 24, 2017 9:33 pm

Finally :mrgreen:

I have proposed such a GUI change in 2013 ;)

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1907#p13693
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Exasperation » Wed May 24, 2017 9:58 pm

Overall, I like the sound of the changes. I have one thing to note, though: the problem of GUI elements obscuring the main area is relative to how close they are to the character. The equipment toolbar is off in the corner where it can't cause problems, and doesn't obscure anything important. The main toolbar is central, which puts it much closer to the character when using a widescreen monitor (which are much more common these days). The main toolbar is therefore much more troublesome, taking up a significant percentage of important screen real-estate to the point that I when I have to work on a large construction I will often walk around it to the south so that I can see what I'm doing, because you can see farther north of your character than south. It would be great if it were possible to have the toolbar in the corner of the screen rather than centered. Alternatively, being able to have it vertically along the right edge of the screen instead of horizontally along the bottom would also be better on a wide screen.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby mcdjfp » Thu May 25, 2017 1:54 am

Twinsen wrote:Toolbelt research might be changed to just inventory increase research. The new toolbelt will probably have 10 pages of shortcuts and you can resize the bar to have as many rows visible at the same time as you like. On each row you can select which of the 10 bars you want to see. Shortcuts can be configured for the first 2 bars.
This is the idea so far at least.


If those 10 pages of shortcuts are available at the beginning of the game, it would mitigate some of my concerns about having a spot for newly crafted items to drop into. It still seems clumsier to me because after 3-4 bars finding stuff is almost as bad as it is in the inventory. Multiple bars also eat up more space on the screen (most monitors are wider than they are tall) and swapping requires extra keystrokes.

Still, I am not quite as concerned, and don't worry, I don't intend to stop playing either way.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby ChurchOrganist » Thu May 25, 2017 4:50 pm

I intended to read through all 17 pages of posts to see whether this had already been mentioned, but, sadly, lack of will, (and limited time) defeated me.

So, in case this has not already been asked for in the UI - which it shoulkd have been.

We need to be able to toggle the minimap/right info pane and the crafting bar on and off.

When in combat, very often these are obscuring stuff you want to see, or are interfering with the targeting of rocket propelled or tank mounted devices.

It would, therefore, be very beneficial to add hotkeys to toggle visibility of these.

Sorry if this as already been asked for, but I felt it necessary to ask for it anyway.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby melfick » Thu May 25, 2017 5:44 pm

I bring a lot of new players to Factorio and I do think it will indeed make it easier for them to move around the GUI
That said, there is one functionnality I would very much like to keep/improve if possible.


Here is my idea:
With the current GUI, when you shift-click wood, ores and coal, it goes in logistic trash.
I would very much like it if it was possible to manually designate ressources that still do this.
I know there is an automated version of this, where it keeps only X amount of said ressource and trashes the rest,
BUT, I may not always want to have this way of working, as I might want to carry some of those ressources manually
I might also want, at a advanced stage of the game, or depending on my playstyle, to manually add something to that shift-click-to-trash mecanic.
(Example, I take a thousand yellow belt for a distant base and once back to my main base, I want to quickly trash them)
So my idea is to add filters to trash (not auto-trash) to allows previously said mecanic to work.

Thanks for considering my suggestion, if you do
Keep working hard, you're all doing an amazing job!
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby Yaua » Thu May 25, 2017 9:01 pm

After playing some dozens of hours with the great 0.15, I would have some suggestions, especially concerning interface. I'm some weeks late since 0.15 release and I wanted to say you all of this sooner but... time flies :P If some people already said things similar to my points, feel free to forget them ;) And if you want me to create a thread for a particular point (or need a picture), just tell me :)

First, the very good things : this version is awesome ! That's really a great work, and playing the game is better as never :D (and I appreciate that it doesn't lag on my old comp' ;))

The train tutorial is so great ! Instructing, interesting and pleasant to play ! Very well done ! Now I strongly hope you'll do the same for logistic/circuit network, combinators, blueprints, robots, [and maybe fluids & steam,] it would be really nice for new user (and me, I'm still lost with combinators and some things in logistic network and some other things).

Now the research tree... Yeah ! That's a great improvement :) Now I would only suggest two things.
- Be able to see how much it would cost on each research icon. The current tech tree, but with the number of science pack needed in top of the technology/ies. Maybe only when you hover it for exemple (the idea is that you don't need to click on it to have the info, to gain time).
- Be able to filter the tech tree : putting an icon of each science pack at the top of the tech tree, and when you click one, it hides each technology which needs it. This way, if you're short on something, you can hide all techs you can't research now.

Now... trains !
Trains are awesome with this version :D Awesome... and some things are a bit frustrating compared to the awesomeness of the improvements.
- Train have names... But you can't name them ? (but I maybe have missed something ?). When you look at the list of trains, when you see all of them, why not showing the names ?? That would be so much helpful ! Same thing on the map, why not enabling the possibility of showing train names ?
- When you see the "preview" map view of one particular train, why not showing station names ? (when you see the map in the train window) I found it a lot tedious to put the destinations : I have to open my fullscreen map to do it ! Since I prefer to keep an eye on my playscreen while opening only the train window, I would appreciate to not have to open the fullscreen map in addition to the train window :P [And why not being able to click on a station you see on the map in the preview window to add it as a destination ? It would be way easier than remembering every name of station !]
- Permitting more flexibility in "editing" train orders would be great :)
-----> Permitting to shift an order at the previous or next position it actually occupy (like in Chris Sawyer's Locomotion for exemple : https://lparchive.org/Chris-Sawyers-Loc ... east11.png the two arrows button on the bottom right).
-----> Permitting to copy/past (partially if possible) the orders of a train to another could be really useful.

Blueprints now !
That a great improvement here too ! :D
(nothing special to say, except that it is a bit complicated to manage at first : how to delete one blueprint, and if you delete it, is it deleted from book only? for example)

Well, that's all that comes in my mind, sorry for the chaos though ! Oh, the idea of an armed train gave me the idea of an armed trailer you could easily attach/detach from the car, but I know this isn't likely to happen :) Combat still needs some improvements but if I remember well, you already said this would come.
Another thing : there was a part of the game where it was a bit tedious to expand (when you begin to have railroads) and with all the improvements of the 0.15, it's way smoother (I think). The game is really a great pleasure to play !

Congratulation for the impressive work of high quality ! Keep up the good work, and thanks for the great game, as usual :)

Edit : and I forgot a small points in tutorials : a tutorial which explains the UI intricacies, "tips to know" and shortcuts of the game would be nice too ;)
Another thing : It could be nice to create a kind of "Upgrade belt" buleprint. This way, you could easily upgrade belts of your factory from one level to another. And this could enable to don't have to create one blueprint for each belt level.

Edit2 : And your planned changes sounds nice and smart, as usual. Of course, I'm awaiting to see how it will works to tell if they're perfect, but I'm not worried ;)
A nice addition could be to be able to reduce/resize inventory window, to be able to keep it opened and see only a small part you would temporary need, for some objects you don't want to put in your quickbar for example.
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Re: Friday Facts #191 - Gui improvements

Postby torne » Thu May 25, 2017 9:19 pm

melfick wrote:With the current GUI, when you shift-click wood, ores and coal, it goes in logistic trash.
I would very much like it if it was possible to manually designate ressources that still do this.


From the FFF, it sounds like the idea is that instead of shift-clicking some things sending them to logistic trash, and having other behaviours for other items, one of the benefits of having the tabs is that the currently selected tab will be able to make this be predictable: when you're on the logistics tab, shift-clicking will send *any* item to the logistic trash, but when you're on the character tab, shift-clicking will equip the items, and so on. So, I think what you want is already the plan :)
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