Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by JJosh » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:32 pm

Fifty was just a number I picked out. Just one level is already a benefit to me. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Anyway, I just found out that Gotlag's Reactors mod already implements cooling towers more or less how I thought they'd be implemented in vanilla, so at least there's that option.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by IronCartographer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:32 pm

Linosaurus wrote:On another topic. Let's make some ideas to make closed water cycle an option that fits nicely in but can still be completely ignored.

Here's mine.
...
Referenced your comment here. Good idea!

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:11 pm

Linosaurus wrote:Perhaps the science pack costs has been massive changed since that FF.
I pointed out earlier this is assuming the research costs are the same however in the Playtesting FFF:
Kovarex wrote:The higher tiers of the research were more expensive and slower (compared to the current 0.14) which I believe is a good thing. Choosing what to research felt more important and as things were unlocked slower. I had enough time to go through almost all the stages of the military options as the game progressed, which felt right.
So while costs may not be quite that high I'm assuming one science pack of each type is going to be at least a couple hundred ore, but they would have to be a tenth of the cost to be marginally worth it even in the early levels...

Still, the only comment I got was that the research is additive, not multiplicative, so just have to trust they know what they're doing =) Easy enough with the Factorio devs. Hoping they just aren't willing to comment on anything further as they do sometimes.
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Linosaurus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:56 am

IronCartographer wrote:Referenced your comment here. Good idea!
Ah cool, thanks.
Deadly-Bagel wrote:(..) so just have to trust they know what they're doing =) Easy enough with the Factorio devs.
Oh indeed. I was very impressed with the iterative design process when they introduced loaders, then the initial version of stack inserters, then the final version that appeared in the game. They started with one idea, then ended up with something much better in the end.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:02 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
hoho wrote:
Xeanoa wrote:Why should I keep digging up resources to do research that'll likely never pay itself back?
Same reason why people build 1 rocket per minute factories - because they can :)
Whee, finally.

Even so I have a big problem with it that unless you bother to do the calculations you won't know that it'll never pay itself off.
It's the same with research speed research. After a couple of levels, it won't pay off.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:35 am

Depends on the size of your lab setup, and it's circumstantial as well. Besides, it's a time-based research so it's only the time you can measure it against, in which case it does pay itself off after a few researches. You might not always be able to add more labs, and besides I'm sure I read somewhere they wanted to change it to actual research efficiency... where you get more research per pack.
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by bobingabout » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:56 am

hoho wrote:It's the same with research speed research. After a couple of levels, it won't pay off.
unless of course you're using lots of mods that add lots of research. then maybe 3 or 4 levels.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Karamel » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:34 pm

hoho wrote:
Xeanoa wrote:Really wish they'd add an alternative to rockets already, that's really getting old fast, but endless research as an resource sink feels empty. How about, say, an 'ultimate defence perimeter' project, which you supply with copious amounts of military equipment, and then call in settlers from your homeworld (possibly with an spaceship, construction needs parts to be sent to space with multiple rockets), which enables the 'permanent settlement' ending. That's both an extension to the current ending, and a much larger project.
Problem with that is no different than what we have now with rocket launch - it's still a specific goal after what you have nothing new to do.

Sure, it'd be additional content but it'd only push back the moment with no "end" goal from launching a rocket to completing that project. It won't solve the underlying problem that there isn't a new goal to do in-game after you have completed the "end game".

With endless rockets/research, at least you can do something with all the resources you dig up.
Well, since Factorio already supports multiple surfaces, the solution is simple: space colonization.

Rocket silos turn into spaceports with names. These act like rail depots, as stops for rockets to transport goods and get refueled. Rockets headed for an occupied spaceport will be put in queue until it clears. If a rocket is loaded with a "colony module", it can be sent to a previously unoccupied moon, establishing a spaceport there upon landing. The module is consumed in this. The rocket can - and should - be ordered somewhere else trough rocket command UI (similar to train UI) or, if it lacks fuel to lift off, to self-destruct.

Other surfaces are airless, so only rocket fuel will work and bots can't fly, but contain the mineral Unobtainium. This can be refined ultimately into Pseudoscience Packs, which are used to research some key technologies like airless versions of bots (which use tiny amounts of rocket fuel, which needs to be imported via rockets) and stargate. Your ultimate mission is to build the Stargate and send as many Pseudoscience Packs as possible (total or per second) to Earth.

The refining of Unobtainium is complex, but every step compresses it tremendously. Thus while at fist you'll likely ship it back to main factory raw, but the more you do so locally, the better the troughput.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Karamel wrote:Well, since Factorio already supports multiple surfaces, the solution is simple: space colonization.
It's not "solution", really. It'll just push the point of "I have nothing else to do" one level deeper :)

In the beginning, the "end game" was to build rocket silo. Next, we got to actually launch the rocket following launching infinite amount of rockets. With 0.15, we can either launch infinite rockets or research mining efficiency (and probably other infinite research thingys).

With your proposal, we'd just get another layer between "launch a rocket" and "research infinite stuff". Also, it's really not be much different from just expanding your megabase. Only difference would be that instead of it being on a single planet, you have many with some newer resources.

Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love more content in form of other planets and/or space platform. It's just that adding content won't solve the core issue of there never being a point where player would always have a reasonable end-goal.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Yoyobuae » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:26 pm

hoho wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love more content in form of other planets and/or space platform. It's just that adding content won't solve the core issue of there never being a point where player would always have a reasonable end-goal.
Devs should just make a pretty cutscene and then roll staff credits, with epic music background followed by a "Thanks for playing!" with maybe some kind of easter egg if all the achievements were unlocked. :D

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:08 pm

hoho wrote:It's just that adding content won't solve the core issue of there never being a point where player would always have a reasonable end-goal.
This is such a bizarre statement. There is only one end therefore how can you always have an end goal? Once you reach your end goal it's not like you get another one, it's in the name, end.

The only way to have more than one end goal is to play multiple games, but that's not really relevant because you don't start a game until you have an end goal. Usually it involves a rocket, you can start adding restrictions or themes like modular bases, no belts for the whole game, get X achievement(s), at any point you can install mods and play with them, I highly recommend Bob's Mods, then if you still want more there's Angel's Ores which just ramp up the difficulty.

I mean how many hours are you intending on playing this game? I've clocked in almost 400 and there's a long way to go yet, there's no lack of content or things to do and it's not like you're being forced to play it the rest of your life.
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by pawel.dawidowski » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm

Will you add some glow effect to the new ore? Would look cool.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by IronCartographer » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:22 pm

bobingabout wrote:
hoho wrote:It's the same with research speed research. After a couple of levels, it won't pay off.
unless of course you're using lots of mods that add lots of research. then maybe 3 or 4 levels.
Lab research speed also decreases the number of labs / beacons / modules required for a given speed of research when using Productivity modules in the labs.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by drmason13 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:24 pm

If [steam turbines/cooling towers] were unlocked by a red+green research, with Concrete and Fluid Handling among the prerequisites, it would arrive at roughly the same time as oil, and after electric furnaces are researched. This is perfect timing, as both are good reasons to upgrade base-load power efficiency. It would offer the player a way to improve their steam efficiency in the early-mid-game, and practice working with pipes containing multiple fluids without the mess that comes from mistakes when learning oil.
This is a really good point here. There is a brilliant opportunity for progression in power generation setups.

I can't wait to see how steam, heat pipes and cooling towers all end up working together with coal and nuclear for mid-late game power generation. And for the tinkering and contraption building that will happen afterwards. I'm still amazed by the circuit connected, gradual shutoff and automatic backup generators that players managed to make with only simple steam and storage tanks and accumulators :D

Oh and yay for no meltdowns in vanilla. If people want their factories to explode whilst they are away killing biters they can install a mod ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by SomeLazyBastard » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:16 am

Another lurker posting to voice support for a closed water cycle mechanic (with cooling towers).

I launched my first rocket without using trains or the circuit network at all or even the personal roboport.
I launched my second rocket using trains, but driving entirely manually, using a personal roboport but still not using the circuit network.
On the third playthrough, I finally took the time to learn the circuit network and train signals and built a FAR more capable factory as a result.

The closed water cycle mechanic should be like the roboport, trains and circuit network and anything else the dev team might consider "too complex for the average player": you don't need to use it to succeed, but if you take the time to learn, you will become a more powerful player.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:37 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
hoho wrote:It's just that adding content won't solve the core issue of there never being a point where player would always have a reasonable end-goal.
This is such a bizarre statement. There is only one end therefore how can you always have an end goal? Once you reach your end goal it's not like you get another one, it's in the name, end.
That sort of was my point - the "end" in factorio currently is launching the rocket. If they add another point (e.g build a space platform), the end point would be there.

Problem people seem to have is that the game offers you the chance to continue playing after you reach the point and players have no other goal to go after except the ones they make themselves.
Deadly-Bagel wrote:I mean how many hours are you intending on playing this game?
Well, I played for at least 1-1.5k hours before Steam launch and currently have ~1.2k hours in Steam so, yeah, I'm not really complaining :)
What I am doing is explaining to people why creating the new "end" point in game won't really solve their problems.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:33 am

Ah okay, you said it was an issue so the intent wasn't clear =P

There's no issue, it's a massive game that will take you 40+ hours to finish your first rocket (longer than most mainstream games) and the replay value is immense. I think the biggest problem is that the rocket is somewhat abstract to the game so launching one doesn't really feel like the end. If there was a basic story (that made sense) we probably wouldn't have so many players wanting more content.

Something as simple as renaming "satellite" to "distress beacon" for example and have a blurb at the start along the lines of "You've crash landed on this strange planet, your only hope is to launch a distress beacon into space and wait for help!" Then it even kind of makes sense that you keep playing because you're waiting for someone to pick up the beacon and get to you.
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:09 pm

[quote="Deadly-Bagel"]If there was a basic story (that made sense) we probably wouldn't have so many players wanting more content[/quote}
There is. It's called the campaign :)

It's just that majority of people play the "freeplay" thingy with randomly generated world.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Xeanoa » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:32 pm

There is. It's called the campaign :)

It's just that majority of people play the "freeplay" thingy with randomly generated world.
Wait, there is a campaign beyond the tutorial?? o.o
Several hundred hours, and I didn't know...

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:14 am

Xeanoa wrote:Wait, there is a campaign beyond the tutorial?? o.o
Several hundred hours, and I didn't know...
Well, to be honest, I've not played them myself but there are 4 different "campaigns". I'm not really sure what their win condition is, though.
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