Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 8079
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by kovarex »


keyboardhack
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by keyboardhack »

As a 2x1 item i don't think the loader is overpowered as it usually won't be used over a 1x1 inserter.
It will also make belts more viable when compared to robots.
Because it's expensive it won't be used in early game and it's really needed in late game when you are working with belts.
Last edited by keyboardhack on Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Waste of bytes : P

User avatar
HanziQ
Former Staff
Former Staff
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:07 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by HanziQ »

How is the number in the title always wrong?

Xeteth
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:06 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Xeteth »

I get what the aim is here with the 'Loader'; it allows a high throughput of items in/out of chests/wagons which may seem like a great idea. But honestly half the magic of Factorio is working with complex builds and designing things to be the 'most efficient' or balanced etc. As such I really think this detracts from the game... Factorio has never been a game to hold the players hand and I think it would lose some of the magic if it did so.

MalContentFL
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by MalContentFL »

I'd love to see the loader in Factorio. I think if it only unloaded and loaded chests it would be balanced, as letting it extract from trains would make almost every train station obsolete. Also, making it endgame wouldn't ruin the creativity of early and middle game designs. I imagine it would cost quite a few processing units and would take a lot of research.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by vanatteveldt »

keyboardhack wrote:As a 2x1 item i don't think the loader isn't overpowered as it usually won't be used over a 1x1 inserter.
It will also make belts more viable when compared to robots.
Because it's expensive it won't be used in early game and it's really needed in late game when you are working with belts.
Loader DO WANT!!!!
I disagree. I think the loader is a too-specific and overpowered replacement for something that already exists, namely inserters. I think inserters almost always move from container-to-container (including assemblers, wagons, etc), or from belt to container or vice versa. In the latter case, they get a big stack bonus. If inserters need to be boosted, why not create a new class of "express inserters", or use the stack size bonus for belt insertions as well?

As Kovarex indicates in the post, it is a drop-in replacement for something that we can already achieve with interesting setups, so I think it takes away gameplay rather than adding it.

What I would instead add are hoppers and feeders. A feeder is a belt that carries goods up into a hopper, and a hopper is a container that has a belt coming out of it (or that can be placed on a belt somehow). This should possibly be restricted to raw materials, ie coal and ores
. Trains should also have hopper cars that can be loaded with a feeder, and that are unloaded automatically if they stop over a hopper car unloader pit, which has a belt coming out of it.

Image

ratchetfreak
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 952
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by ratchetfreak »

Maybe don't fully compress the blue belt.

Instead add tiers: only provide enough for a yellow belt for the first tier. Red belt for the second one and blue for the final one. Each with increasing costs.

It should also be limited (besides the extra space) so it won't replace the inserter completely. Like it won't work with all entities.

User avatar
DaveMcW
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3707
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 11:06 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by DaveMcW »

The belt balancing mini-game is overrated. It has almost no benefit compared to letting over-supplied belts fill up, and under-supplied factories shut down naturally.

If you really want to play the belt balancing game, you quickly realize that it is a boring circuit optimization problem that has nothing to do with building factories. The best solution is to copy a design from someone who cares about it more than you.
Last edited by DaveMcW on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
TuckJohn
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by TuckJohn »

I vote no on the loader- as someone mentioned above me, it replaced the need for (some) complex setups and it can take away part of the gameplay.
~1200+ hours clocked in factorio. Avid KSP and Factorio player

sillyfly
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 11:29 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by sillyfly »

I think the loader can be a great addition if done correctly, or very frustrating if done incorrectly. The main issue is probably it being "overpowered", so it takes over everything.

I think if it can take out of any chest and put into any chest it may (not sure) be overpowered. If it can interact with assembling machines as well it will definitely be overpowered.

I don't think it being able to interact with wagons will be overpowered - on the contrary, I think making it only able to interact with wagons (Ok, and maybe steel chests) will make a lot of sense - I don't really enjoy putting loads of chests next to every wagon, and I really think it's a problem. There's no thought to it - just slap a very long line of chests with inserters. Why not have one entity that can unload the train fast, instead of all these chests and inserters?


So my opinion is a loader is probably a good idea if it:
1. Takes a high-level research to unlock (at least blue science, possibly gated by Inserter stack size bonus 3 or 4).
2. Can't take things out of / put things into assembling machines / furnaces etc.
3. Is expensive to build and requires electricity.
4. (And I know this will probably be a point of contention, but I really think this one makes a lot of sense!) It can put things into / take things out of cargo wagons.

sillyfly
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 11:29 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by sillyfly »

DaveMcW wrote:The belt balancing mini-game is overrated. It has almost no benefit compared to letting over-supplied belts fill up, and under-supplied factories shut down naturally.

If you really want to play the belt balancing game, you quickly realize that it is a boring circuit optimization problem that has nothing to do with building factories. The best solution is to copy a design from someone who cares about it more than you.
I completely agree with this.
vanatteveldt wrote: What I would instead add are hoppers and feeders. A feeder is a belt that carries goods up into a hopper, and a hopper is a container that has a belt coming out of it (or that can be placed on a belt somehow). This should possibly be restricted to raw materials, ie coal and ores
. Trains should also have hopper cars that can be loaded with a feeder, and that are unloaded automatically if they stop over a hopper car unloader pit, which has a belt coming out of it.
Also very good point. Maybe make them only able to process raw materials, and only load/unload wagons, and maybe "ore heap".
Last edited by sillyfly on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GeoStyx
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by GeoStyx »

I like what sillyfly said. I think it'd need to be high level research, and be really expensive to make. Also require electricity to run, and have it only work with chests and train cars. I do think this would take the pressure off of using so many bots lategame to reduce lag.

Martc
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 8:20 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Martc »

I like hopper/feeder idea. It will works like loader but it would have own storage, which needs to be filled/emptied with inserter. This way you can use inserter stack bonus for belts and you still needs some designing to saturate belt.

selkathguy
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 8:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by selkathguy »

I agree that a lategame belt solution is required. I think this "Loader" as it stands now is significantly overpowered being able to completely saturate a belt.

Suggestion: Perhaps it can load both sides, but only as fast as a slow belt could, so you have convenience at the price of throughput.

Efficient and optimized systems should be a challenge to build, but not tedious. As it stands now the Loader removes all challenge for maximum performance, which the entire point of the game is an optimization puzzle. As a sidenote it robs players of the satisfaction of "i built this" and makes higher throughput factories less impressive, imo.

EDIT: Hoppers and Feeders seem interesting. As long as you can combine entities with others in new and interesting ways, more entities is fine. They just should not serve a single purpose.
Last edited by selkathguy on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

silver_26
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:08 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by silver_26 »

I would say no.
first becase you are pushing the 0.13 further away every time
and more and more things com between it so, with the loader
it will take even longer for 13 to be released... ( and im waiting over 6 months for it )

2nd I think it will be over powered .
and how are you going to make this "loader" if you would have a belt with chests on both sides for storage ?
or storage unload...
like chest - loader - chest - loader ect. ? that would be overpowered

and I agree with selkathguy
Efficient and optimized systems should be a challenge to build, but not tedious. As it stands now the Loader removes all challenge for maximum performance, which the entire point of the game is an optimization puzzle. As a sidenote it robs players of the satisfaction of "i built this" and makes higher throughput factories less impressive, imo
I prefer to have bigger chests like warehouses with ... 30 / 40 or 50 items slots

leave the idea as it is and continue with bugfixes , dedicated multiplayer servers, and 0.13
or / and maby optimization for mega bases... caz im down to 22 Ups / 25 FPS

I think that is more a priority then the loader
Last edited by silver_26 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 8079
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by kovarex »

silver_26 wrote: or / and maby optimization for mega bases... caz im down to 22 Ups / 25 FPS

I think that is more a priority then the loader
Can you provide the save? I will definitely do some optimisations in the spare time.

User avatar
DanGio
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 6:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by DanGio »

Loader seems fine to me if well balanced, like said before : expensive item, late & expensive research...

maybe huge power consumption, or even, could consume lubricant in order to work ?
Last edited by DanGio on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mercury044
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Mercury044 »

sillyfly wrote:I think the loader can be a great addition if done correctly, or very frustrating if done incorrectly. The main issue is probably it being "overpowered", so it takes over everything.

I think if it can take out of any chest and put into any chest it may (not sure) be overpowered. If it can interact with assembling machines as well it will definitely be overpowered.

I don't think it being able to interact with wagons will be overpowered - on the contrary, I think making it only able to interact with wagons (Ok, and maybe steel chests) will make a lot of sense - I don't really enjoy putting loads of chests next to every wagon, and I really think it's a problem. There's no thought to it - just slap a very long line of chests with inserters. Why not have one entity that can unload the train fast, instead of all these chests and inserters?


So my opinion is a loader is probably a good idea if it:
1. Takes a high-level research to unlock (at least blue science, possibly gated by Inserter stack size bonus 3 or 4).
2. Can't take things out of / put things into assembling machines / furnaces etc.
3. Is expensive to build and requires electricity.
4. (And I know this will probably be a point of contention, but I really think this one makes a lot of sense!) It can put things into / take things out of cargo wagons.
I like the idea of a loader for chests (like loading Iron Plates into a Pasive Provider) but i like that trains take thought to unload.

Also like the idea of it taking stack size to unlock.

what about something that only loads chests quickly not unloads?

User avatar
madpav3l
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by madpav3l »

NO Loader, I think it is too OP or make it very limited, for example can be used only for raw ore (iron, copper, coal) so basically just for unloading/loading trains and even in this case I would limit the speed maybe just to saturate yelow belt.
As others said, make it expensive and late game research.

EDIT
I really like the Lubricant idea people come up with later in the thread.
Last edited by madpav3l on Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
provet
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by provet »

I've wanted something similar for some time now, I vote yes to loaders!
If nerfs were to be made. Make them only for input to inventories, not output.

Post Reply

Return to “News”