Friday Facts #5

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Friday Facts #5

Post by slpwnd »

Yet again, some news from the Factorio world before the weekend: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-5

User avatar
Nova
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:13 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by Nova »

We have always took the stance of fixing bugs first, adding features later. This is contrary to some very popular and successful indie games out there. So we naturally wondered whether it makes sense for us to keep doing this or whether we should try to move forward faster and build more features (there is plenty on the list).
That's exactly what i hate on minecraft. "More features!!" - "But Notch, the light engine bugs around like hell, dark areas everywhere. Also redstone doesn't work properly for the past 4 releases, and not even partly in multiplayer." - "MORE FEATURES!!!11111oneoneeleven"
But of course, it's an alpha. Don't mind every small bug. Description not exactly right? Doesn't matter. Maybe you can just fix this kind of bugs only one time for every main version? But if you do this, please write that to every reported bug: "Thanks for the bug report, we will turn to this task sometime later." or whatever. Always answer to every bug report. "no anwser" looks bad and it's not clear if the bug is really a bug or just some misunderstanding.
Greetings, Nova.
Factorio is one of the greatest games I ever played, with one of the best developers I ever heard of.

User avatar
FreeER
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by FreeER »

Nova wrote:[...]But of course, it's an alpha. Don't mind every small bug. Description not exactly right? Doesn't matter. Maybe you can just fix this kind of bugs only one time for every main version? But if you do this, please write that to every reported bug: "Thanks for the bug report, we will turn to this task sometime later." or whatever.[...]
+1 Posts/Bug reports without responses can imply that people (you amazing developers in the case of bug reports) do not care and just letting them know that you've noticed might/will keep people posting any other bugs they find :)

Also +1 to more/improved features :D
<I'm really not active any more so these may not be up to date>
~FreeER=Factorio Modding
- Factorio Wiki
- My Factorio Modding Guide
- Wiki Modding Guide
Feel free to pm me :)
Or drop into #factorio on irc.esper.net

pcmaster160
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by pcmaster160 »

I like the idea of having more minor bugs but also more features even though I thought you guys were working on features really fast already.

Keep up the great work!

wrtlprnft
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by wrtlprnft »

So I guess if there is a graphics update or some minor feature is added to the game, all you have to do is re-record the tralier, and it will never be outdated again :-D

Can't wait to see it!

slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by slpwnd »

Nova wrote: But if you do this, please write that to every reported bug: "Thanks for the bug report, we will turn to this task sometime later." or whatever. Always answer to every bug report. "no anwser" looks bad and it's not clear if the bug is really a bug or just some misunderstanding.
That is actually a great and simple idea. But it never really occured to us:/ To me us the default is that we read everything in the bugs section and no answer means no work done at the moment. Will try to change it and communicate better with the bug reporters. Thanks.
Nova wrote:That's exactly what i hate on minecraft. "More features!!" - "But Notch, the light engine bugs around like hell, dark areas everywhere. Also redstone doesn't work properly for the past 4 releases, and not even partly in multiplayer."
I understand, we sort of take pride in having a stable game with as little bugs as possible (even though it is an alpha). It really hurts when I see that people are frustrated by some bugs. We brought it up because recently the bugfixing has been the main topic and slowly we slid to "we need to fix everything" mood. So the result is there should be a line between what must be fixed now and what can be postponed.

slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by slpwnd »

wrtlprnft wrote:So I guess if there is a graphics update or some minor feature is added to the game, all you have to do is re-record the tralier, and it will never be outdated again :-D
Exactly. Though I am not sure we will be "updating" it multiple times in the future (maybe like once if there is a complete graphics overhaul:)). Actually we use this ability already at the moment. I can work on the trailer even though the new tiles graphics is not there yet.

We decided to do it like this after our experience with the previous trailer. Before we had a screenplay and we made a sort of a small replay for every scene. However then we still had to record the every scene, manually adjust the camera, do the timing right (manually), etc. And in the end put everything together in some video editing app. It was a pita.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12266
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by ssilk »

I want to mention, that I used many tools in my life and the forum for bug tracking is ok.

But I recommend not to change the current behavior. If a bug is not answered, it is not in progress. The reason is simple: what can be said? Thank you, but this bug is not so important?

Another point I found here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7376 ... cking-tool

In big projects like the one I'm working on, there is one person, the product owner, which sorts the bugs by importance. The users can see, at which place the bug is now and can estimate, when it is fixed.

Ok, that's of course too much, but I said this, because I think, that the players (we) need nothing more: just to estimate, when a bug is fixed. I searched a bit, but found nothing working well for phpBB. Eventually you should think about a simple (!) bug-tool; I would say Mantis can handle that very well.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Psycho0124
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:46 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by Psycho0124 »

slpwnd wrote:I understand, we sort of take pride in having a stable game with as little bugs as possible (even though it is an alpha). It really hurts when I see that people are frustrated by some bugs.
Hehehe.. I've been reporting a few of these minor bugs lately. Sorry kovarex. :P
Just keep in mind that bug reporters often know the bug is minor and may not even be bothered by it at all. You're definitely right in choosing to let some bugs-mashing wait until later, it's just good to have them documented. I report bugs and spam any ideas that cross my mind because I genuinely want to help you guys to succeed and make lots of money with Factorio. It's a great concept and you guys deserve to be successful. :D
I'm not offended/bothered in the least if bugs aren't fixed immediately or ideas aren't liked; myself, and I bet the majority of the player-base, just wants to help in any way we can.

By the way, what can we do to help get Factorio on steam?

User avatar
Nova
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:13 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by Nova »

ssilk wrote:But I recommend not to change the current behavior. If a bug is not answered, it is not in progress. The reason is simple: what can be said? Thank you, but this bug is not so important?
Exactly. Much better than just saying nothing. You can't differate between "yes, it's a bug" and "no, you are too stupid to understand our almighty and unfailing programming!!!!11111" without an anwser.
And how much work is it to write "Thanks for the bug report, we will turn to this task sometime later." under every new bug, if it won't be worked on in the next time?
Greetings, Nova.
Factorio is one of the greatest games I ever played, with one of the best developers I ever heard of.

slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by slpwnd »

Nova wrote:Exactly. Much better than just saying nothing. You can't differate between "yes, it's a bug" and "no, you are too stupid to understand our almighty and unfailing programming!!!!11111" without an anwser.
And how much work is it to write "Thanks for the bug report, we will turn to this task sometime later." under every new bug, if it won't be worked on in the next time?
I agree. Actually back then when we had like 3 pages of bug reports (:)) we just forgot about some bugs. And only when the user bumped it we got back to it.

SilverWarior
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:23 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by SilverWarior »

ssilk wrote:Ok, that's of course too much, but I said this, because I think, that the players (we) need nothing more: just to estimate, when a bug is fixed.
How would we players estimate when certain bug would be fixed when even developers can't do that. Some bugs can be solved easily (fixed in next update) but others misght not (require large code overwrite and be finally done aftere several updates).

ssilk wrote:Eventually you should think about a simple (!) bug-tool; I would say Mantis can handle that very well.
I have tried several "bug tools" and I must say that I was mostly unsatisfied with them. Why?
Most bug tols have bug lists whose entries folow nex teplate: bug/isue nr. xxxxx short name of the bug givven by the person repoting it.
In most cases this means it is not so easy to quickly find similar or same bug without opening each one of them. So same usually same bugs gets reported miltiple times.
So imagine when you as a developer go and fix some bug, makr certain bug report as fixed, but later you find another report for the bug you have suposingly fixed. Now you don't know if the bug might have been repoted multiple times, or your fix just didn't work. So you will go and recheck to see if the bug still exists. In the end this is a real motivation killer.
Another problem with bug tools is that they split bug reports into multiple areas (graphics, sound, AI, etc.). While for us who nows some things about how games are made it isn't difficult to put the bug in right area. But for pepole who have no knowledge on game structure puting bug report into corect area can be a nightmare. So in most cases such pepole simply say screw that I won't even report that since I don't know where to put it.

The fact is that most bug tols are suitable to be used by programers only and not by the general population.
But the forums are much more user friendly for general populatiuon. And the best thing about the forums is that quite often the solution/cause for bugs is found ut by the comunity itself which makes developers job a bit easier.


So I would say stick with forum and if necessary split the bug report section into seperate subsection to filter the bugs a bit. But don't forget to leve tha "unsorted" section to be used when pepole don't know into which section the bug they are reporting fits.

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 8053
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by kovarex »

SilverWarior wrote: So I would say stick with forum and if necessary split the bug report section into seperate subsection to filter the bugs a bit. But don't forget to leve tha "unsorted" section to be used when pepole don't know into which section the bug they are reporting fits.
Our goal is to have so few unsolved bugs to not have the need for categories :)

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12266
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by ssilk »

SilverWarior wrote: How would we players estimate when certain bug would be fixed when even developers can't do that. Some bugs can be solved easily (fixed in next update) but others misght not (require large code overwrite and be finally done aftere several updates).
By looking. He sees, that there are no more important bugs before, so he can estimate, that "his" must be one of the next.
I have tried several "bug tools" and I must say that I was mostly unsatisfied with them. Why?
Most bug tols have bug lists whose entries folow nex teplate: bug/isue nr. xxxxx short name of the bug givven by the person repoting it.
In most cases this means it is not so easy to quickly find similar or same bug without opening each one of them. So same usually same bugs gets reported miltiple times.
So imagine when you as a developer go and fix some bug, makr certain bug report as fixed, but later you find another report for the bug you have suposingly fixed. Now you don't know if the bug might have been repoted multiple times, or your fix just didn't work. So you will go and recheck to see if the bug still exists. In the end this is a real motivation killer.
As said, priorizing bugs is in bigger projects not the task of the developer. When a project has - let's say - more than 3 devs, there must be someone, which - in the long term - is the product owner. And to be product owner doesn't mean to be dev. That's two different roles, because the product owner has a total different focus.

But with Factorio there is a lot of time, before this point may be reached. In this case, one of the dev-team is responsible for priorizing bugs.
Another problem with bug tools is that they split bug reports into multiple areas (graphics, sound, AI, etc.). While for us who nows some things about how games are made it isn't difficult to put the bug in right area. But for pepole who have no knowledge on game structure puting bug report into corect area can be a nightmare. So in most cases such pepole simply say screw that I won't even report that since I don't know where to put it. The fact is that most bug tols are suitable to be used by programers only and not by the general population.
But the forums are much more user friendly for general populatiuon.
I know that. But I never said, that we as the users must use a bug reporting tool. I think nothing should be changed now for us.

The tool is for the development/product owner to get a better overview. And for us to see, which bug is in which state. In the forum a link has to be set to the bug, and the forum has sometimes to be cleaned up, but that's all.
So I would say stick with forum and if necessary split the bug report section into seperate subsection to filter the bugs a bit. But don't forget to leve tha "unsorted" section to be used when pepole don't know into which section the bug they are reporting fits.
+1
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #5

Post by slpwnd »

Psycho0124 wrote:By the way, what can we do to help get Factorio on steam?
We will need quite some help soon:) We need to go through the Steam Greenlight process. That is a mechanism where the community votes on the games they would like to see on the Steam. So we introduce our game and if the steam community is interested the Valve might contact us about publishing Factorio on the Steam.

To get the best out of the Greenlight campaign we will turn to our community (that is mostly you guys here on the forum:D) to support us - either by voting for the game on the Steam or by spreading the word.

Post Reply

Return to “News”