Random Ramblings #3

Regular reports on Factorio development.

Random Ramblings #3

Postby kovarex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:49 pm

The entity remnants were really missing in the game, the first, specialised one for the wall is now in the game.

The wiki is up now(viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1363), so I started to do revision of the scripting info there just to find that it is quite off in some places. Updating the wiki and refactoring and restructuring some of the scripting interface inside Factorio was my work for most of the day.
I was also extending the scripting interface, so things like this can be done: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1338 (check the video of turbo car and race track).

Tomas created attack reaction mechanism for entities, so things like spiked wall and similar can be modded easily.

The rest of the time is filled by bug hunting and fixing and reading the forum.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby Nirahiel » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:56 pm

How do you clean the remnants ? Are those remnants because of mining or destruction ? Can you harvest them and recycle them to get a little bit of extra resources ?
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ficolas » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:57 pm

I guess is like a corpse entity?
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby kovarex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:29 pm

Yes, it is like corpse, it is just there as a reminder that something was destroyed (not mined) there. It will disappear after a while (15 minutes for the wall).
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby n9103 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:25 pm

Yay for more battlefield scars :)
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby RawCode » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:01 am

railline looks suboptimal.

it will be nice to have ability to switch completely to electricity with 3rail line (one powered) and get electric locomotive (IRL all locomotives are electric)
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby LoSboccacc » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:29 am

RawCode wrote:railline looks suboptimal.

it will be nice to have ability to switch completely to electricity with 3rail line (one powered) and get electric locomotive (IRL all locomotives are electric)


fun fact of real life: all locomotive are electric but some have a diesel generator on board.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby wrtlprnft » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:20 pm

LoSboccacc wrote:fun fact of real life: all locomotive are electric but some have a diesel generator on board.

Not quite true. There are also locomotives with hydraulic or even purely mechanical transmission. But heavy-duty cargo locomotives are usually electric as far as I know.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby kovarex » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:00 pm

LoSboccacc wrote:fun fact of real life: all locomotive are electric but some have a diesel generator on board.


I didn't know that, it really doesn't seem to make sense to me.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby LoSboccacc » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:06 pm

consider how big powerful and unwieldy a diesel engine that can move a train is.

consider what kind of flywheel and clutch it would require.

so now it makes sense: much better to attach it to a generator and use the generator to power the electric motors attached to the wheels, no clutch required and you have torque from 0 rpm and it is split directly on as many wheel you want


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-ele ... ansmission
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ssilk » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:44 am

There is this big fight what's better: electrical or hydraulic transmission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_loc ... sion_types


And I'm used to drive to Nürnberg with this thing, which is a very modern type of passenger train:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_611

Conversion is hydraulic there.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby n9103 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:19 pm

Almost all (not some) trains are diesel-powered.
Almost all diesel engines are acting as generators, not drive motors.
Of those that aren't diesel, almost all are passenger service only (or severely limited cargo+passenger).
Those that aren't diesel or passenger carrying, are probably heritage Steam/Coal.

Pure electric trains are basically either in-town electric street cars/subways, or are Maglevs for passenger service.

You can get technical and point out the electric "trains" they use in mines, but those hardly qualify as trains as they max at around 15mph, and are much shorter than even a normal person. They're more like electrically-powered wheelbarrows on rails, than they are trains.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ssilk » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:50 pm

This is the list of locomotives used by the Deutsche Bahn:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_ ... schen_Bahn

Under "Diesellokomotiven" you see the column "Antr.". "dh" means diesel-hydraulic, "de" diesel-electrical.

And for the rest of your statements: maybe that the rest of the world is using different trains, but Deutsche Bahn isn't just a small part. For Swiss, Austria and other surrounding states in Europe it isn't much differently.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby n9103 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:31 pm

Completely German, and poorly google-translatable.
Can't address you on specific points due to that.

I will point out that unless we're now dealing with actual size manufacturing(etc.) in the game, the game seems to be simulating game worlds above the regional size. (Based mostly on how close together the resource fields are, even on average and lower.) Additionally, Germany falls in the Regional level of service, based on distances they have to cover, (it's smaller than most States in the US,) and don't have to worry too much about the limited capacity of batteries or capcitors, as well as the time and cost of electrification.

In addition to the difference in scale, there's the difference in resources. Factorio has a Coal-Heavy energy generation system, and converting from straight coal to coal-electricity generation can only be a net loss in efficiency. As for using solar, well, an average electric will pull about 10kW, so you'd have to have over 150 panels for a single train.

I'll also point out that having electrified trains means you (usually) can't cross into another region's rail system (without special equipment, even assuming they're electrified), and that you'd have to deal with all the replacements and retro-fitting.

Should we get fully electric engines and rails, the time for removing/replacing rails needs to be substantially increased to reflect just how large an undertaking it is to switch to electric.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ssilk » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:36 am

n9103 wrote:Completely German, and poorly google-translatable.
Can't address you on specific points due to that.

This is not needed, I want to show, that "almost all" just isn't right.

I will point out that unless we're now dealing with actual size manufacturing(etc.) in the game, the game seems to be simulating game worlds above the regional size. (Based mostly on how close together the resource fields are, even on average and lower.) Additionally, Germany falls in the Regional level of service, based on distances they have to cover, (it's smaller than most States in the US,) and don't have to worry too much about the limited capacity of batteries or capcitors, as well as the time and cost of electrification.

In the game we can say one tile is about one meter. Like in minecraft. So when you speak about dimensions of U.S. I would mean, that isn't just manageable with current computers. Try to load all map-tiles from google-maps in the comparable resolution into your computer to prove me wrong. :)
I calculated it: USA has area of about 9826630 km^2. That is in square meters 9826630000000, or rounded a 1 with 13 zeroes. Which is, assuming, that one tile needs only one byte, about 9 TiB. And even for Germany it's about 300 GiB.
I mean, realistically we can have sizes of countries like Lichtenstein, most Greek islands or so. And in about 20 years the computers should be able to handle that.
What I mean is: factorio doesn't need to handle with such high distances now, because it isn't possible to handle the maps.

I'll also point out that having electrified trains means you (usually) can't cross into another region's rail system (without special equipment, even assuming they're electrified), and that you'd have to deal with all the replacements and retro-fitting.

I think Desktop Traffic Tycoon deluxe is the reference for factorio, when speaking about trains and traffic.

Should we get fully electric engines and rails, the time for removing/replacing rails needs to be substantially increased to reflect just how large an undertaking it is to switch to electric.

Totally agree. :) see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1254
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby n9103 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:46 am

Show me a dozen places anywhere that has coal deposits only 10 meters across and the next coal/copper/iron deposit is less than 20 meters away.
Show me assembly plants only 9 square meters in size.
This is 2-3 Magnitudes short of reality.

About the only thing that stands up to 1m tiles is the player, and *maybe* turrets.
Everything else is smaller or larger, and they're just represented at the sizes they are.

Entities, (particularly moving ones) aren't all at the same scale, and most of them aren't even relative in scale to anything else.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ficolas » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:10 am

Things dont need to be in scale to be fun :)
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ssilk » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:19 am

I didn't say it has to be in scale. I said that if the scale is one meter, that maps in the size, which are about one percent of the size of USA are to big to handle.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby Dakkanor » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:34 pm

i would say that the scale for resources and other items is not realistic, but is an acceptable break from reality, after all that game creators need to keep the game at a playable scale. i can carry 64 9x9m assemblers in one of my belt pockets. not at all realistic, but it IS playable. for waht they're used for each iron plate must be huge, i would say at least 1m squared, but i can carry 126 in a single compartment.

but then, i can process all that metal and stone in phenomenal time, where does the yellow paint for the new furnaces come from?

the answer? future tech! yes its cheap but if you are an engineer from the advance scout you probably know some pretty good stuff off the top of your head, and also have some device or other that handles fabrication. i see assemblers as single stages of a factory, they are crude, reverse engineered versions of your personal fabricator, chests and the like are probably more like extremely large storage racks, possible with digitization tech slipped in(same tech which probably is your inventory)

the thing with coal deposits could be that the coal, iron, copper and stone is all near the surface but not sticking out lying around on the ground, with earthquakes, volcanic activity and time, this could be reasonable believable, not entirely but for the sake of gameplay it works as an acceptable break from reality.

i posted an idea a few months back about the entire planet being a creeper breeding factory, with what you see on the surface being just the outer shell. its a fun idea :) its all about letting yourself believe what you see in an abstract manner, without letting that happen almost any game is to unrealistic to be acceptable.
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Re: Random Ramblings #3

Postby ssilk » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:48 pm

In the first weeks I tried to explain me, how the things could be as it be. But the first time I produced a car, placed it and found out that the car itself has also an inventory I laughed and laughed, 1 minute and also now I keep smiling. :lol:

Currently I think, when the game is ready we can make a tutorial mission. But not on the planet. The tutorial is before the mission starts and explains all the "crazy" game mechanics with some humor. The player is pilot and, before he is allowed to play, he need to make an exam. A trainer explains the pilot the sense of this tutorial:
"You know, you will eventually land on a planet, completely alone and with dangerous aliens, which want all kill you?"
"I don't think so?"
"But when it happens?"
"It won't!"
"But it is possible!"
"Not!"
"I don't let you through the exams, if you say that again!"
"O. K. Alone on a planet with bad aliens, what else?"
"It's dark?"
"Like in the night?"
"Yes, really dark."
"...but only in the night?"
"Maybe... I wasn't there..."

... Some later explaining the player inventory.
"You mean I should wear all that iron plates? One plate is about 5 pounds!"
"You will be very soon accustomed to the weight!"
"No, no, no, wait. One plate is 5 pounds, one stack is 128 plates ... And how many stacks do I have? 40????"
"Don't think about it... It will overwhelm your mental walls I installed!"
"But..."
"Shhht. Not think about!"

And later on, with the locomotive:
"I don't understand this."
"What?"
"I can carry a whole locomotive, right?"
"Many..."
"And when I place it, it has an inventory... In which I can put a ... locomotive."
"Right. Do you know matryoshka puppets?"
"Of course!"
"That's not how this works; just don't think about it."
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