Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

[GregoriusT]

I often point two Miners into a Splitter, so I guess one could just filter that Splitter to fill two belts based on which resource they are for, and that at the instant they are mined, without needing a late Splitter to filter the Belt?

[FuryoftheStars]

Re: mixed stacked belts - the stacks themselves will very likely not be mixed, so these will not be a "nightmare" to clean up. Again, priority & filtered splitters to separate them all out, then if for some reason you need them properly stacked & compressed (which I wouldn't think would matter if their next stop was chests for train loading), you can use the upcoming new inserters to restack the belts.

This game, as far as I see and understand it, is not meant (at default) to be a mindless factory builder (though you can make it more like one by disabling various things with the map generator). You're meant to have logistic challenges/puzzles to try and solve. Having ore patches that touch and thus can't be cleanly/purely mined very much seems like one such challenge/puzzle.

Adding a filter to miners just completely negates this challenge/puzzle. That feels like a very uninteresting way to deal with it. It also means that once a filtered miner finishes all of the filtered ore, you then need to change/clear the filter.

Additionally, if you just have one huge miner BP that you stamp down across the whole thing and the line between the two resources stretches across relatively just right, then it won't make a bit of difference as your belts coming out will have pure miners at both ends of the belt mining different ores, anyway. A filter on miners can't solve that.

[mmmPI]

Re: mixed stacked belts - the stacks themselves will very likely not be mixed, so these will not be a "nightmare" to clean up. Again, priority & filtered splitters to separate them all out

I agree, the solution for mixed ore patch for me is to have all the mining drill covering a mix of ore to ouput in a priority belt, that is sorted, and re-injected in the respective ore belts with priority over the ore coming from non-mixed sources.

It is possible that some ore is stuck behind another ore, but this isn't problematic unless you also happen to have empty one of the ore and not consuming another that is mixed with. Then you could see say some iron, stuck because copper isn't consumed. But if you lack iron then, it means there is no more iron on the mixed patch than the iron covered by mining drills that also cover copper. Which means you don't have enough iron period.

A filter on the mining drill would not really solve problems to me. What do you put as filter ? copper or iron ? Which ever you put , you will have to do manual intervention to use the other bits of ore. And in the meantime you lose the abitlity to extract both while you could be wishing to have the one that is unfiltered extracted.

[XT-248]

I often point two Miners into a Splitter, so I guess one could just filter that Splitter to fill two belts based on which resource they are for, and that at the instant they are mined, without needing a late Splitter to filter the Belt?

At this point, one might as well customize the miner layouts for each mixed ore patch, which makes for unfun tedious, busy work.

IE: Stamp mining outpost blueprint, then manually set the filters at one splitter and copy/paste.


At least with filtered miners, I can deal with it when they run out of one ore type by changing the empty belt in the right direction and then changing the filter on the miners.

Without filtered miners, the busy work comes from deconstruction logistics apart, holding those displaced materials somewhere, and re-input the wrong material on toward the right part of the factory.


I don't think anyone thought about the implication of using splitters exclusively to solve mixed-input logistics. Splitters block either filtered or unfiltered items if the exiting belts can not completely clear out for ANY reason.

I can only think of a few solutions that mitigate this issue, and they all come with more significant downsides than adding a filtered feature to miners.

[FuryoftheStars]

I often point two Miners into a Splitter, so I guess one could just filter that Splitter to fill two belts based on which resource they are for, and that at the instant they are mined, without needing a late Splitter to filter the Belt?

At this point, one might as well customize the miner layouts for each mixed ore patch, which makes for unfun tedious, busy work.

IE: Stamp mining outpost blueprint, then manually set the filters at one splitter and copy/paste.


At least with filtered miners, I can deal with it when they run out of one ore type by changing the empty belt in the right direction and then changing the filter on the miners.

Without filtered miners, the busy work comes from deconstruction logistics apart, holding those displaced materials somewhere, and re-input the wrong material on toward the right part of the factory.


I don't think anyone thought about the implication of using splitters exclusively to solve mixed-input logistics. Splitters block either filtered or unfiltered items if the exiting belts can not completely clear out for ANY reason.

I can only think of a few solutions that mitigate this issue, and they all come with more significant downsides than adding a filtered feature to miners.

[EDIT] Having the miners output directly to splitters isn't the right solution, agreed. But you can have them output to the same belt and then when that belt leaves all of the miners, have the filtered/prioritized splitters there.
Yeah, it's probably best not having the splitters that are being directly fed be the ones with the filters, but honestly I think this is only true for the purposes of reducing the number of filters to manage and the fact that not everyone has/uses this kind of setup in the first place. Having one set at the end of the belts with the filter would be easier to manage and have the same net affect. [/EDIT]

Yes, these can back up if one of the resources isn't taken fast enough, but you should be able to have several other belts coming out that are not mixed and if properly prioritized will allow a continuous flow of resources until you've used up most of the patch. And if it's a really messy patch/extremely hard thing to get any pure belts out of because the size & shape, then that sounds like exactly the type of patch to do a custom layout on, and the perfect reason why you shouldn't be relying solely on that one location for the needed ore.

[GregoriusT]

I just remembered something that is only slightly related but still important to this debate!

The new Train Stop Priorities can make it so you use up the mixed ore patches first before trains from the other patches get used. Just remember to limit the amount of trains to the amount of SINK stops as opposed to the amount of SOURCE stops.

[FuryoftheStars]

You know, too, it's dawning on me from this thread, and specifically this post, that some people use very different layouts from what I imagined.

So that said (and I'll edit my post above), I amend my previous statement in saying that "having the miners output directly to splitters isn't the right solution" to rather having the filtered splitters being the ones the miners are feeding directly into as probably not the best solution.

[MeduSalem]

I just remembered something that is only slightly related but still important to this debate!

The new Train Stop Priorities can make it so you use up the mixed ore patches first before trains from the other patches get used. Just remember to limit the amount of trains to the amount of SINK stops as opposed to the amount of SOURCE stops.

Not only that, you can have interrupts decide what to do on a specific condition.
So if some wrong ore snuggles into the mix, you can still load it onto the train. Detect it with the interrupt condition and send the train to the specific offload station, where filtered inserters take only that stuff out that is supposed to go there. And then send the train to the other station to offload the rest.

That is a possible way to dealing with the issue in the future.

[mmmPI]

I just remembered something that is only slightly related but still important to this debate!

The new Train Stop Priorities can make it so you use up the mixed ore patches first before trains from the other patches get used. Just remember to limit the amount of trains to the amount of SINK stops as opposed to the amount of SOURCE stops.

Not only that, you can have interrupts decide what to do on a specific condition.
So if some wrong ore snuggles into the mix, you can still load it onto the train. Detect it with the interrupt condition and send the train to the specific offload station, where filtered inserters take only that stuff out that is supposed to go there. And then send the train to the other station to offload the rest.

That is a possible way to dealing with the issue in the future.

That is an improvement ! I knew you could already somehow prioritize train to use those from mixed sources rather than pure sources by using 2 different stackers with a train stop named differently at the entrance, and turn red a signal for one of the stacker, if the second is not empty (reading other signals to know this). So that one stacker empty in priority, and the other is for regular train when there is no train coming from the "mix sources stacker" . The unload station could be named the same, and it worked for byproduct with some modded games but that felt overenginnering the solution for just mixed ore under mining drill. The interrupt used this way takes it to a whole new level ! It allow more flexibility with less requirement on infrastructure. Smarter designs !

You know, too, it's dawning on me from this thread, and specifically this post, that some people use very different layouts from what I imagined.

Well joining random multiplayer games or reading the forum have some good sides because you get to see how other people do a lot and can learn from that. Also their ideas, on how they plan to use the new train features

[MeduSalem]

Well joining random multiplayer games or reading the forum have some good sides because you get to see how other people do a lot and can learn from that. Also their ideas, on how they plan to use the new train features

The true endgame is the official forum.

Always. In every game. ^^

[FuryoftheStars]

You know, too, it's dawning on me from this thread, and specifically this post, that some people use very different layouts from what I imagined.

Well joining random multiplayer games or reading the forum have some good sides because you get to see how other people do a lot and can learn from that. Also their ideas, on how they plan to use the new train features

Oh sure, absolutely. I mean, I got my layout from others on the forums years ago (image attached). I used to do like what the OP of the thread I linked is with their layout: straight lines of miners with no space between the miners themselves except what was needed for a single belt line and maybe power. While I suppose it should be reasonable to have assumed so, it hadn't occurred to me that some people actually place the miners to their extreme limits (2-tile space in all directions), or that some people (like it sounds like GregoriusT does, maybe?) did this kind of a layout with splitters sitting between each pair of miners to immediately balance it.

None are bad (that I can tell), just designs in a different direction than what I typically think of (spaced out and slow vs compact and fast).

[mmmPI]

Oh sure, absolutely. I mean, I got my layout from others on the forums years ago (image attached).

I've seen that one in multiplayer

or that some people (like it sounds like GregoriusT does, maybe?) did this kind of a layout with splitters sitting between each pair of miners to immediately balance it.

That i don't recall seeing on small mining drill. I think the aim is to prevent the mixed ore mining drill to stall by offering a way out of the mining drill for both ore ? you load the side of the splitter with the mining drill maybe ? I need to try that next time.

That reminded me that you can use a mining drill to ouput on a logistic chest too, in order to deal with mixed output. Or in a chest from where filter inserter can pick up. Or in a filtered cargon wagon placed on disconnected rails to act as a chest. I did that with the omega mining drills mod because with beacons and modules their ouput can count in hundreds per second per drill or so each of them covering maybe as much as 20 regular mining drill. I suppose if you have a legendary big mining drill surrounded by legendary beacon filled with legendary speed module tier 3 and some prod research. The output of such drill could be more than what stacked green belt could carry. It does open up may possibilities in the vanilla game

[XT-248]

[EDIT] Having the miners output directly to splitters isn't the right solution, agreed. But you can have them output to the same belt and then when that belt leaves all of the miners, have the filtered/prioritized splitters there.
Yeah, it's probably best not having the splitters that are being directly fed be the ones with the filters, but honestly I think this is only true for the purposes of reducing the number of filters to manage and the fact that not everyone has/uses this kind of setup in the first place. Having one set at the end of the belts with the filter would be easier to manage and have the same net affect. [/EDIT]

Yes, these can back up if one of the resources isn't taken fast enough, but you should be able to have several other belts coming out that are not mixed and if properly prioritized will allow a continuous flow of resources until you've used up most of the patch. And if it's a really messy patch/extremely hard thing to get any pure belts out of because the size & shape, then that sounds like exactly the type of patch to do a custom layout on, and the perfect reason why you shouldn't be relying solely on that one location for the needed ore.

It doesn't matter where the splitters are. They still have the same bottleneck.


I have come up with some crazy solutions that avoid splitters and the flow issue: miner-direct-to-train-wagons with pre-filtered inventory slots (alternative between the various mixed ores), fully logistic bot enabled for raw ore mining outposts, underground belt weaving between filtering-splitters/no-filter-miners until they reach open area, and more.

They are all equally bad in some way or form. The vital question remains unanswered: What trade-off players are willing to accept to have zero-filter big miners that can fully stack a green belt end-game with at least two types or more of ore?

[FuryoftheStars]

It doesn't matter where the splitters are. They still have the same bottleneck.

Sure, and I'm not arguing that.

I'm not going to rehash everything that I and others have already said. I feel like we've offered sooo many solutions. But if that's all you care about - that none of the belts can possibly back up in the whole setup - then all I can say at this point is that I whole heartedly disagree with your position. I believe this is a natural part of the game that we are meant to solve and overcome... without requesting a feature that essentially eliminates it.

[XT-248]

Sure, and I'm not arguing that.

I'm not going to rehash everything that I and others have already said. I feel like we've offered sooo many solutions. But if that's all you care about - that none of the belts can possibly back up in the whole setup - then all I can say at this point is that I whole heartedly disagree with your position. I believe this is a natural part of the game that we are meant to solve and overcome... without requesting a feature that essentially eliminates it.

The trade-off of having a convey belt backed up by splitters from mixed ore miners outposts is that they take longer to clear out the mixed ore portion of the ore field to make way for a fully dedicated-to-only-one-type-of-ore miners outpost.

Alternatively, players could design mining outposts with three groups of miners: two groups or more dedicated to mining a single ore type with a third group dedicated to clearing out the mixed portion. This incurs additional overhead toward the list of player tasks when they come across mixed ore patches.


WUBE added innate 50% extra productivity, pre-stacked output without stack inserters, and a wider mineable area to Vulcanis Big Miners, splitters backing up trade-off became more noteworthy because one can not afford not to use Vulcanis Big Miners unless they are willing to downsize to use obsolete miners (Nauvis Electric Mining Drill).

[GregoriusT]

I would like to clarify that the Miners facing into a Splitter is a thing I do to futureproof for insane levels of Mining Productivity and only once Blue/Olive Belts are researched. Helps with postponing the need of direct to Train mining. For the earlygame I use the "yellow Underground Belt with Wood Poles and Landmines" variant instead.

The ability to set the Splitters to have a Filter is just a helpful extra at the seams between two Ores.
(coal is the most annoying one to deal with to be honest, since you dont tend to need that in large amounts, though I guess that is just my experience from before 2.0 is going to add the trains thing i mentioned)

[FuryoftheStars]

The trade-off of having a convey belt backed up by splitters from mixed ore miners outposts is that they take longer to clear out the mixed ore portion of the ore field to make way for a fully dedicated-to-only-one-type-of-ore miners outpost.

And why are you waiting for one field to clear out before setting up the next?

Alternatively, players could design mining outposts with three groups of miners: two groups or more dedicated to mining a single ore type with a third group dedicated to clearing out the mixed portion. This incurs additional overhead toward the list of player tasks when they come across mixed ore patches.

The only need/reason to do this are on 3 or more ore mixed fields, or fields where the line between the two is at a right enough angle to make it so the number of pure belts you can get out of it are minimal and you don't have another source, yet (again, why?). Or fields where cliffs/water make this necessary for some reason.

[XT-248]

And why are you waiting for one field to clear out before setting up the next?

One example is clearing the mixed ore patches to make way for future factory expansion that happens to be in an awkward location. Or the player needs that coal 'now', and it will be some time before they can find another ore patch.

The actual reasoning doesn't matter. The how and when of clearing out resource patch matters.

The only need/reason to do this are on 3 or more ore mixed fields, or fields where the line between the two is at a right enough angle to make it so the number of pure belts you can get out of it are minimal and you don't have another source, yet (again, why?). Or fields where cliffs/water make this necessary for some reason.

Resource patches having Mixed Resources of more than two types, Water and cliff, are not necessary for conditions to make me do three groups of miners in one outpost.

Others have posted examples earlier, but I will repeat with my hypothetical example: a significant ore patch split between two resources: Iron and Copper.

Group #1 of miners is mining on the east iron side of the mixed ore patch and has an iron train pickup station.

Group #2 of miners is mining on the west copper side of the mixed ore patch and has a copper train pickup station.

Group #3 is between the first two groups, mining iron/copper with distinct buffer/splitter logistics that feed the ore into the above respective train stations.

Group #3 miners are more likely to stall if either train station becomes saturated for any reason, no matter how trivial it may be.



Ordinally, I would have two rows at most mixed electric miners on a straight line of mixed ores. It is worse for mixed ore patches with a zig-zag line.

Then, Wube added a larger mineable area for Vulcanis Big Miner.

Much larger mining area of 13x13 tiles (+4 tiles from the drill edge)

Source: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-387


Contrast this with the electric miners only having 5 by 5 tiles of a mineable area (1 tile from the drill edge).

That means mixed ore issues are far more likely to happen than before without knowing any other changes that may come in the Factorio 2.0 patch or Space Age Expansion.

[GregoriusT]

Hrrm, how about using Circuits instead of Splitters to prioritize the mixed Ore Belt going to the Train Buffers, and the Train Buffers once they exceed one Train Cargo Wagon Load will send a Circuit signal to the pure Belts to stop them from filling the Buffer?

Obviously this is a more difficult thing to do for people who completely ignore the Combinator System out of "fear", even though all you need to do is hook up wires from a row of Chests to a single Belt segment and set a condition on it.

[FuryoftheStars]

Resource patches having Mixed Resources of more than two types, Water and cliff, are not necessary for conditions to make me do three groups of miners in one outpost.

Others have posted examples earlier, but I will repeat with my hypothetical example: a significant ore patch split between two resources: Iron and Copper.

Group #1 of miners is mining on the east iron side of the mixed ore patch and has an iron train pickup station.

Group #2 of miners is mining on the west copper side of the mixed ore patch and has a copper train pickup station.

Group #3 is between the first two groups, mining iron/copper with distinct buffer/splitter logistics that feed the ore into the above respective train stations.

Sure, and that's your choice to try splitting them up like that. Point was, even without splitting them up physically, you're still typically going to get the same net results by just stamping down one big ol' blueprint: the belts coming out of your miners on one side will be pure of resource #1, the belts coming out of the miners on the other side will be pure of resource #2, and the belts coming out in between the two sections will be your mixed.

So, while yes, what you mention here is absolutely true...

Group #3 miners are more likely to stall if either train station becomes saturated for any reason, no matter how trivial it may be.

...it ultimately doesn't matter in terms of anything other than how quickly you can clear that location, because you've still got a flow of resource #1 from one side, and a flow of resource #2 from the other side, and you'd dang well had better be looking for another deposit of each before that one starts to run dry if you don't already have one. If you're only running one mining operation per resource at a time, then you're setting yourself up for failure.

So, ultimately, to this:

The actual reasoning doesn't matter.

It actually kind of does. You're asking for a feature to be added to the vanilla game that would completely remove one of the challenge aspects of it, and the reasons you've come up with so far are:

• Player choice ("I want to build here and don't want to build over or around")
• A failure on the player's part to properly plan and prepare ("I've used up all of my coal except this bit of mixed here"), which, if true here, would still be apt to be true even with mixing completely solved or even removed
• A really unfortunate rng roll ("There's absolutely no coal anywhere nearby that I can find"), which the devs have already weighed in on as being artifacts of the rng system and to either roll with it or roll a new seed

To top that off, with the exception of the starting area (which by nature of starting with nothing and having to work your way up you'll typically be working manually with the starter fields anyway), mixed patches are actually very rare in vanilla.

None of these reasons, to me at least, make for strong convincing arguments to support the idea of adding a filter to miners. The fact that the new miners are bigger and have a bigger mining area doesn't change any of that.