Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

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Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

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Gergely
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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Gergely »

I think FFFs need spoiler sections now for the expansion. I would like for a way to skip reading about the DLC, because for the first time I am finally going to have the chance to experience a "new" Factorio blind, but at the same time I don't want to miss the news about improving the base game. Reading those feels nostalgic at this point.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Ok research queue enabled… next AlT mode!

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by v0lta1c »

Awesome news!

I really like the idea of trigger researches. Makes the game feel more intuitive where one does not just spam all research and wonder what to do next.

This I feel is also going to improve mods immensely because so many mods have extra ores/liquids and now they can properly lock the ore processing behind tech without needing a special liquid/building!

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by pointa2b »

Very nice Wube. The introduction of research triggers is a cool way to implement learning newer technologies. Research queue always on is also good.... I haven't seen a single person on MP who prefers the latter. As for individual item productivity, for the sake of balance I'm assuming the research cost scales up very quickly?

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by aka13 »

I appreciate the time you took responding to comments in the previous FFF. I was worried, that the radio silence on the forum would persist.
I also have high respect for remaining steadfast on your vision, how it all should be, and how you see it.
I am still not sure, if I like enrichment loops on my factory parts, but I am definately warming up to it. Maybe it is how it is, just like with beacons, where you have to bite the bullet, and decide on some intermediary ratio until you reach a certain research level and logistics proficiency.

The technology idea is great, I think it will be a very nice addition for new players and for mods. I had a lot of fun "discovering" things in that way in "satisfactory".
Will there be nice green bars, like with the science packs for those crafting-mining milestones?
Last edited by aka13 on Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Stringweasel »

The last very frequent opinion was, that it would be better use this opportunity to introduce a lot of interesting custom recipes to get all the qualities of different items. But avoiding this was the cornerstone of the design.
I prefer quality much more than adding multiple tier recipes. It clutters the UI, makes malls harder to build, etc. Personally I really like the SE and K2 type approach where there's the base version, and a completely upgraded new entity that's way stronger (like Electric Furnace and Industrial Furnace). But the quality approach seems fun as well.

Now we just need an alternative for the boring re-occuring beacon build. Sounded somewhere that you guys are working on something like that, so curious what you came up with :)
The solution that ticks all the boxes is in the end incredibly simple - we added a new method of researching a technology. Instead of processing science packs in a laboratory, technologies can now be completed with a trigger.
This is an awesome addition! It will also be very useful for mods. For instance, Nullius has this feature I think built with scripting. Biter Power as well, but that's triggered on a custom script event, which this feature won't really help with.
We also wanted to let you unlock something super powerful for the end-game, which led us to the idea of the research productivity.
A feature that I didn't know I wanted, but now can't imagine why it never existed before. Well done!
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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by IForgotMyName »

Image
The number of science packs looks strange. Perhaps we will have a new type of progression, different from linear and exponential.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Akronymus »

Will the prod bonus be bound to a recipe or a product? Very different implications for mods between those options.

Also, one thing that comes to mind with the new thing: Could you mod a module into the game with a higher quality bonus at the cost of a negative prod bonus, which would be counteracted by the prod research? Just so many modding oppurtunities.
Last edited by Akronymus on Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by mmmPI »

Very excited to see the late game infinite research given some attention, and so for the research queue.

A little less about the triggers that i feel i have experienced with the mod Nullius. I would say they achieve exactly what's described, and are a perfect fit for the situation that is presented, but also i liked being able to go deep into the research tree even if i don't have the ressources in sight, hopefully it feels more like guidance than gate and doesn't prevent me to fill in the research queue all the time :).

Much thanks for all the clarifications about the quality feature , I think my first impressions over estimated the impact it would take in terms of footprint/dedication for the whole factory.

Happy to read another FFF !

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by kovarex »

aka13 wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:25 am
I appreciate the time you took responding to comments in the previous FFF. I was worried, that the radio silence on the forum would persist.
I had to do it this way, because just trying to read through the 35 pages on forums and countless posts on reddit is quite a challange on its own. (I didn't even dare to try to read the steam)
Now imagine trying to answer all of them one by one ...

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Feather »

Galdoc has a really inetesting alternative to the quality naming scheme
Source: https://youtu.be/cVCLjwrFiTw?t=110
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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Shuisman »

IForgotMyName wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:29 am
Image
The number of science packs looks strange. Perhaps we will have a new type of progression, different from linear and exponential.
From one data point you can't say it is different from linear or exponential, or am I missing something? could be 750+ 1500*level or 750*3^level…

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Shuisman »

For the steam-power research (50 iron plates); would it show the progress then? so if you crafted 20 or so, it would be 40% filled? The top-right only shows one research technology, but now multiple can be 'researched' at once…

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by DeadMG »

The oil example given is a bit problematic. If you think about how this process works there's some annoying steps for the player.
1. Research pumpjacks
2. Go place pumpjacks. But then there's nothing you can do with the oil.
3. Then go back and make chem plants oil refineries.
4. Then go back to the pumpjacks and actually use the oil.

There's some distinctly unnecessary roundtripping here of the player where they have the oil and the tech, but they need to make the building but are standing in the wrong place to do so, and are making the oil but can't do anything with it.

I'd suggest that the unlockable techs should only be recipes, not buildings, so the player can pre-build everything they need, at least for buildings the player might conceivably build outside their main base.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Stringweasel »

The names are the easiest thing to change. Maybe I don't take myself and the game too seriously and found it amusing, but if we had a very good counter-proposal which feels good and is clear when it comes to tiers, we can still change it.
I do think there is a little room for improvement here. My main thought against the current names is that if I manage to get a Rare, Legendary item is that sounds like I got it by luck. It wasn't luck, I probably would've worked hard to get this item. Spent tons of resources, power, built complicated setups. IMO the name should reflect this. Chances are if you have a Legendary item, then you put in a lot of effort, and it wasn't luck at all. Personnally I would want to the names to reflect the effort. A good way to convay this would be to describe the quality (heh) of the item, and not the rarity.

I'm not set on any names, but would imagine something like
  • Normal
  • Refined (Might be weird if there's an item name like "Refined Steel" already)
  • Prestine (I like this one)
  • Superior (I like this one)
  • Masterwork (I also like this one)
I must say though, the part of me that takes the game less seriously does find the names like Epic and Legendary funny and will cause a giggle. But from my point of view Factorio doesn't joke with itself. It simply displays the facts (like this is a Superior Iron Gear). Any feeling the player experienced is created by the player. Similarly Factorio doesn't explain to you why launching a rocket is awesome (no flashing popups or victory music), but when it happens it's so satisfying because you know how much effort it took.
kovarex wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:36 am
aka13 wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:25 am
I appreciate the time you took responding to comments in the previous FFF. I was worried, that the radio silence on the forum would persist.
I had to do it this way, because just trying to read through the 35 pages on forums and countless posts on reddit is quite a challange on its own. (I didn't even dare to try to read the steam)
Now imagine trying to answer all of them one by one ...
I also have to commend you guys here. There's was a bit of pressure after the previous FFF, but I think you guys are handling it well, and should stay with your vision. It's always complicated having a expansion (read sequal) that keeps the previous players happy, but have enough new things to make it interesting. And personally I think that Wube knows how to strike this balance, and I'm excited to see what you come up with!
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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by Diablo »

Happy to see all of this coming to 2.0 (and not 1.1)
I like the game (1.1) the way it is and will enjoy it, probably, for at least another 10 years.
Probably going to skip on 2.0 though.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by miturion »

Stringweasel wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:55 am
  • Normal
  • Refined (Might be weird if there's an item name like "Refined Steel" already)
  • Prestine (I like this one)
  • Superior (I like this one)
  • Masterwork (I also like this one)
I really like the 'Masterwork' for the best item.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by redplasticstraw »

DeadMG wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:48 am
The oil example given is a bit problematic. If you think about how this process works there's some annoying steps for the player.
1. Research pumpjacks
2. Go place pumpjacks. But then there's nothing you can do with the oil.
3. Then go back and make chem plants oil refineries.
4. Then go back to the pumpjacks and actually use the oil.

There's some distinctly unnecessary roundtripping here of the player where they have the oil and the tech, but they need to make the building but are standing in the wrong place to do so, and are making the oil but can't do anything with it.

I'd suggest that the unlockable techs should only be recipes, not buildings, so the player can pre-build everything they need, at least for buildings the player might conceivably build outside their main base.
this is probably my biggest issue so far with this new system. I see the perspective of this system from a new player who has absolutely zero clue what comes next in the production chain and the recipes involved, and discovering that is actually pretty cool. but anyone with more than 100 hours will most certainly see this as an annoyance instead, as they already know what needs to be done so it turns into that back and forth to progress instead of showing up with supplies, building, and leaving an autonomous outpost all in one go.

my biggest question is how will researches based on materials work with progression? I like both paths in this situation, where there is a hard chain that you need to go through to unlock certain stuff, but I also really like the idea that going out and finding new materials lets you unlock stuff early.

satisfactory struck a great balance with this and their whole m.a.m. system, where you could just go and find that material and get some pretty good stuff early on, or just eventually have to get it because research is locked behind it.
Stringweasel wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:55 am
I'm not set on any names, but would imagine something like
  • Normal
  • Refined (Might be weird if there's an item name like "Refined Steel" already)
  • Prestine (I like this one)
  • Superior (I like this one)
  • Masterwork (I also like this one)
also, this. absolutely this. I would prefer it not to sound like Fortnite items, which is kinda funny but in the context of an official factorio expansion, but it just doesn't fit with the tone of the game.

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Re: Friday Facts #376 - Research and Technology

Post by grzybk »

Are the changes to technology (and I assume the engine additions too) enabled in the 2.0 update or the DLC?

I'm not sure about the processing techs being unlocked just by mining a resource. It's weird that mining a piece of uranium tells you the secrets of centrifuges. I think it could be better if it were like in Captain of Industry, where you need to do X before you're allowed to start researching a tech, but then you still need to select the tech to research and supply the labs.
Last edited by grzybk on Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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