Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

[Durabys]

WOW! We are well on our way to another "No Bots Anymore" clusterfuck.

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-254

I was there for the Monday afternoon LAN party two weeks ago. I talked to people there and they all had one big issue with research - specifically, the Endgame. From new players to old.
I have a middle ground idea, Kovarex, and it is derived from the Civilization Turn Based Strategy series.

Suggestion:
Basically. All the people I talked to complained about not being able to leave the game running with an automated Mega/Giga Factory for a few hours while they go away from the computer to sleep/work/other leisure activities.
My proposal is from the Civilization series own end-game solution to research: Any of the infinite research topics once picked in the R&D bar, will be continuously researched. AKA: It will auto-jump after completion to research the next level of that particular topic (e.g. Artillery Range). This would allow people to play the early to late game as you envision it and then go for automated score grinding of the Endgame.

[Charidan]

I just got Automation 2!

• Open the tech tree and browse to figure out what I want next
• Find logistics robots. I want those!
• Go up the tree and notice I need engines
• Select engines to research next
• Wait
• Engines finished!
• Remember I was going for logistics robots (which might not be easy if I quit for a week and came back later)
• Go up the tree and notice I need automobilism
• ... repeat 2 more times for prereqs ...
• Finally, select logistics robots to research next

Here is the workflow for how I would expect a well-implemented research queue to work:

I just got Automation 2!

• Open the tech tree and browse to figure out what I want next
• Find logistics robots. I want those!
• Select logistics robots to research next
• All the prerequisites are queued. I am done.

I'm also supporting this. If your rationalization is that the research system should focus on player choices, than it should not focus on player non-choices. There have been too many times where i'm working towards a big tech like "trains" and don't notice a research has finished, or I do notice and I have to ask "what actually comes next in my pursuit of trains?" This isn't a gamebreaking power like logistics robots that fundamentally changes how you interact with the game and provides power, this is an option to hit less buttons if these low-level choices don't interest you individually. Please give us at least the level of queueing where we can pick a tech with locked prerequisites and auto-research up to it.

[ixnorp]

I am extremely entertained that the main argument provided in favor of keeping the research queue is player choice or keeping it an option when the also-optional choice to use mods exists.

This should not be overlooked:

If the dev team ultimately doesn't believe this is worth putting in the base game, then perhaps a compromise?

Talk to the developers of the research queue mods and find out what limitations of the mod API are preventing them from their 'ideal' implementation. For example, it would be nice if they were integrated into the research screen, or could implement the notifications instead of interrupting the player with a full-screen popup.

My thinking is that the devs appear reluctant to do big UI changes, but the modding community has to do a *ton* of UI programming by necessity. So UI enhancements might be produced more efficiently by having the core dev team support the modding community to develop big UI enhancements. That would probably also facilitate integrating especially successful (and high-quality) mods back into the base game, if they become ubiquitous enough.

[malventano]

[*]The newly unlocked recipes might be overlooked (It is solvable by some kind of pop-up, but it is far from perfect).

...conversely, the player might be trying to reach an end-goal that is a few steps down the chain, and they would queue several techs to get them there. Without the queue, they need to remember where they were headed and select the next item in the chain each time one completes.

[*]It adds to the feeling of just going through a to-do list without having much to say about it.

You mean like the feel of automating a section of the factory and then no longer having much say about it? Kinda the point of the game, is it not?

[*]The queue has to be changed a lot as the priorities change.

Yes, as priorities change you can insert the higher priority at the start of the queue, with the added bonus that your prior queued items are not forgotten and will resume once the higher priority items have completed. More times than once I've found myself randomly clicking technologies, looking for the 'saved progress' bar, just so I could resume what I was researching before.

[Masterfox]

I am extremely entertained that the main argument provided in favor of keeping the research queue is player choice or keeping it an option when the also-optional choice to use mods exists.

This should not be overlooked:

If the dev team ultimately doesn't believe this is worth putting in the base game, then perhaps a compromise?

Talk to the developers of the research queue mods and find out what limitations of the mod API are preventing them from their 'ideal' implementation. For example, it would be nice if they were integrated into the research screen, or could implement the notifications instead of interrupting the player with a full-screen popup.

My thinking is that the devs appear reluctant to do big UI changes, but the modding community has to do a *ton* of UI programming by necessity. So UI enhancements might be produced more efficiently by having the core dev team support the modding community to develop big UI enhancements. That would probably also facilitate integrating especially successful (and high-quality) mods back into the base game, if they become ubiquitous enough.

Right, and luckily there are no consequences for using mods, right? It is not like one little mod would prevent me from getting achievements on Steam, joining a server, or that it needs to be maintained by some third party which might abandon it(Though Servers are the most annoying one of these).

[gyorokpeter]

I'm sad that resarch queue doesn't get added.
There is joy of looking at the result of new research... on my first game ever. But after restarting the game a dozen of times, I already know what tech does what, and I don't even use many of them but still research them just for the sake of completeness.
So I think either the queue should be enabled for new games if a player has launched at least one rocket, or have it optionally available even in the first game but hide the option in the options menu so it's not easily found, then hint at the existence of the option after the first rocket launch.

[malventano]

I just got Automation 2!

• Open the tech tree and browse to figure out what I want next
• Find logistics robots. I want those!
• Go up the tree and notice I need engines
• Select engines to research next
• Wait
• Engines finished!
• Remember I was going for logistics robots (which might not be easy if I quit for a week and came back later)
• Go up the tree and notice I need automobilism
• ... repeat 2 more times for prereqs ...
• Finally, select logistics robots to research next

Here is the workflow for how I would expect a well-implemented research queue to work:

I just got Automation 2!

• Open the tech tree and browse to figure out what I want next
• Find logistics robots. I want those!
• Select logistics robots to research next
• All the prerequisites are queued. I am done.

^ This. Might also need the capability of >4 items in the queue to accomplish.

[malventano]

I'm also disappointed that the queue has been cancelled.

If you're not going to have a queue, then can you please make the 'research finished' screen be less of an interruption? It's really frustrating to be working on something closely and suddenly he snapped into a very different context. Notify me that research is done, but let me choose when to go into the science selection screen

This is how it works in multiplayer. Several have asked for the ability for it to be the same in single player.

[Philip017]

i was quite excited to see that you had planned to add research que to vanilla, i felt like it would be a fantastic addition, especially since one of my staple mods was research que.

as long as i can add the mod again i guess it isn't a huge loss to not have it in vanilla, but this is a sad moment to loose this feature.

kinda like the feeling about loaders being an awesome addition to the vanilla game, and they are also another staple mod i use.

i can see it being detractive from the new player experience, but it would be nice if, once you have beaten the game once, it auto unlocks and you have access to it hence forth.

my 2¢

[Tricorius]

I would like to see the research queue “ghost” (in the crafting menu) items that will be unlocked by any item in the queue. (This would also provide a good place for a tooltip saying “Assembly Machine is currently locked, but will be available when Automation research is complete”. Might even be able to hyperlink the research name to the tech tree dialog.)

The system could then trigger, upon completion of each individual research, some sort of alert that you have reached a new level of technology. At this point the next time you open the crafting menu, it would “unghost” and frame highlight (or whatever) the new technologies available.

You could even make the “ghosting” lighter for items further on in the queue.

I feel this would reinforce to newcomers that research begets craftable items, it builds anticipation for new items, and if you haven’t looked at the crafting menu even after five or more completed technologies you can still experience the joy of having all those new items unghosted and highlighted. In fact, you might argue there are more items highlighted which provides more joy.

And also, veterans who have a specific progression they like can queue up multiple things and still get a quick tickle of the memory of what they unlocked recently.

[ixnorp]

I am extremely entertained that the main argument provided in favor of keeping the research queue is player choice or keeping it an option when the also-optional choice to use mods exists.

This should not be overlooked:

If the dev team ultimately doesn't believe this is worth putting in the base game, then perhaps a compromise?

Talk to the developers of the research queue mods and find out what limitations of the mod API are preventing them from their 'ideal' implementation. For example, it would be nice if they were integrated into the research screen, or could implement the notifications instead of interrupting the player with a full-screen popup.

My thinking is that the devs appear reluctant to do big UI changes, but the modding community has to do a *ton* of UI programming by necessity. So UI enhancements might be produced more efficiently by having the core dev team support the modding community to develop big UI enhancements. That would probably also facilitate integrating especially successful (and high-quality) mods back into the base game, if they become ubiquitous enough.

Right, and luckily there are no consequences for using mods, right? It is not like one little mod would prevent me from getting achievements on Steam, joining a server, or that it needs to be maintained by some third party which might abandon it(Though Servers are the most annoying one of these).

There are no consequences of note for using mods. The concern about it needing to be maintained by a 3rd party is the most legitimate complaint of these. Important mods tend to be taken over swiftly as necessary but I fully agree that this is a potentially significant problem. This is one of the reasons I think the devs should work closely with modders of extremely popular mods and maybe even make them official mods. Making them official mods could possibly address your second point.

If you're a hardcore player with 1000s of hours in the game who feels they really, really need a research mod to queue up Mining Efficiency 348 you are not in the majority. You also probably already have all of the steam achievements anyhow or could do a quick modless run to get them if you feel the need to show them off publicly. I feel like you're really grasping at straws with this one.

They have talked in the past about servers automatically matching mods with clients which would be the ideal solution for everyone in this case, not just research queue mods. This is a listed planned feature for the 0.17 patch. I agree that this is currently an issue which needs a solution. Nobody really wants to go through the effort of making a mod pack for a server and then having users download it. Auto-mod sync is a significant QoL boost for all players that makes public servers more accessible.

[ixnorp]

If you're not going to have a queue, then can you please make the 'research finished' screen be less of an interruption? It's really frustrating to be working on something closely and suddenly he snapped into a very different context. Notify me that research is done, but let me choose when to go into the science selection screen

This is already an option.
Options -> Interface -> Technology window opens when research is completed

Dig into the options. There may be ones you don't know about that will be useful to you!

[Atraps003]

Disappointing

[PaszaVonPomiot]

I'm totally fine without reaserch queue. If I need one I'll just grab Research Queue mod. What I would like to see is better looking technology tree and maybe a bit interactive.

[bobingabout]

You know, the problem of not knowing when a research completed could easilly have been solved by doing some sort of alert when a queued research completed, like the research complete sound.

Also, only 5? that is VERY limited. I would have hoped for something more like what you have in Oxygen not included. You want to research Rocket Silo research? Just click on Rocket Silo research and EVERYTHING that you need to research before it gets queued. EVERYTHING.

[Jap2.0]

Disable it in the tutorial. Lock it behind a research (hopefully not too late). Lock it until you complete one game. Notify us when techs are completed (obviously). Make it an option. No one has to use it. Whatever it takes, just leave it in the game. We're here to build a factory, not deeply study the research tree. Many of us already know the teach tree well, and all it is is an interruption. That doesn't give us a sense of pride and accomplishment. If we need to change the focus of our research, we will.

Also, make it more like Civ. I should be able to click a research and add all its prerequisites to the queue. I should be able to ctrl/shift click to add multiple things to the queue. Whatever. I don't think there should be a limit to the queue length.

Also, the experimental branch is to experiment. Add it there for a few versions, and you'll likely get some good feedback. If the removal is justified, then there will be less backlash. If it isn't, well, either re-add it or come up with much better justification.

[PunkSkeleton]

Kovarex,

You miss the most important pros for some people, especially the ones who have big/mega bases doing infinite research - with research queue you can leave the game running without your attention and not have to be there when the research finishes. Yes, you can do big buffers for science packs and much more labs but this is just a workaround.
For 1 000 000 + SP researches it is even impossible for me to determine when it will end since the progress moves so slowly that 1 pixel takes a long time. Adding a possibility to check the research progress more closely would be nice but it seems like a niche and complicated solution.
For mining productivity I really want to leave it for a few hours and get multiple levels done.

And while I agree that might seem strange to leave the game running but that's what many people do.

[nevniv]

As I'm sure others have said...research queue is for pros, not for new players. Make new players click one at a time, that makes sense. Don't make the rest of us click on Rocket speed again and again just to get to the silo..

[wvlad]

Nooo, I'm a big fan of the research queue feature!

[Tricorius]

You know, the problem of not knowing when a research completed could easilly have been solved by doing some sort of alert when a queued research completed, like the research complete sound.

Yup. I have to admit, I’m pretty entertained that last week a major accomplishment was adding a “Train out of fuel” alert. But a similar “Automation research complete” that, when clicked, pops up the crafting menu (with possible new item highlighting) was simply dismissed.