Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

[Ashprinny]

This might sound really stupid but imho the things that are planned to be "axed" (pun intended) are mainly going to be removed because they were never fully developped....
Axes being axed? Yeah because everyone uses flamethrowers/grenades/tanks because even the steel pickaxe makes chooping wood tedious....why didn't we ever get a chainsaw; is my question...why not multiple tiers of axes; axes that mine in an area (or cut trees). Mods save a lot of players inclined to download them there. Every new main tier of materials going from iron to steel to bronze to brass to titanium or maybe even diamond gives Bob-mod players new tools that makes mining/chooping less tedious and in my experience that also leads to less usage of tools not meant primarily for that purpose like grenades. So in this case and imho, less isn't more...the lack OF more MAKES it less.

Fuel Efficiency too. Daft Punk: Bigger better faster stronger is part of making that dream factory....why cut out the better and settle just on bigger? More tiers of fuel for more raw energy. More upgrades with better efficiency so fuel becomes more long lasting. Here's something I think the devs kinda forgot in axing that....More boilers to produce more means more pollution. More upgrades with better efficiency means LESS POLLUTION AT THE SAME EXPENSE and isn't polution juggling also a part of this game?
This also cuts down on UPS; less entities means less stress on the rigs of players who might otherwise have difficulty running 2x-10x as many entities but a better efficiency means they can still get just as far. Again...in this case I don't feel less is more.

Again, this is all my opinion ofc but I feel that if the devs take this path and continue on that course factorio will eventually just become a game of Copy+Paste.
I was VERY happy to see that I'm not the only one who finds satisfaction in automating complex crafting recipes like you might find in Bob's/Angel's/Pyanadons. It's why I mainly exclusively play with these mods nowadays too...I noticed that upon the switch of .15 to .16 I was stuck with playing vanilla for a while as mods still had to be updated. I ended up waiting for those mods to be updated because vanilla is already such a copy+paste job with the narrow path of "more is more" being just about the only option there whereas mods like Bob's/Angel's/Pyanadons/Yuoki's also give me the option to upgrade instead of expand and to get the "more is more" idea you would have to certainly reserve space for the belt-puccle or pipe-puzzle to handle all the side-materials or even just the materials themselves.

[Pallando]

There are several mods which add higher levels of assemblers (and things like higher level modules that needs more ingredients). It works nicely.

I understand wanting to make the game-that-people-first-play have a low a barrier to entry as is possible while still retaining the elements which make the game enjoyable and entice them to explore it further.

So the question is whether the gateway of being able to assemble recipes with 3 ingredients adds the sort of complexity that is needed to expose new players to the potential of factorio.

As much as I like the complexity myself (and I personally go for Bobs+Angels), I think you've made the right call on this.

I just wish there were a 'factorio approved' standard mod that added certain things back in, in order to make a standard 'base game', leaving the newbie level entry-mode game to be something like an 'easy mode' which people graduated from after their first play through, rather than 90% of players permanently sticking with.

[stm]

Without reading all the post available here, I must say that I disagree with the idea to remove fuel efficiency in Boilers etc.
One reason is the already mentioned balance between furnaces. The fact that electric furnaces effectively use double the fuel pre modules is a nice balancing feature in my opinion.
What is more important in my eyes though is the fact, that it takes away the option to have a second tier of burning power generation with thigher efficiency. Normal Boilers: 50%, Advanced Boilers (Tier 2, create higher temperature/more steam): ~66-75% with less pollution,
Fuel-Cells as tier 3: directly produce Electricity (no steam) with ~100% efficiency, little or no (direct) pollution, but can unly use solid fuel for example.

And by the way: One thing that is bothering me is the way reactors and boilers interact with steam: IRL you can heat steam a lot better by burning things, while in Nuclear reactors you are limited to (much) lower temperatures.

But axing the axes is a good idea. They don't give anything in terms of gameplay, and are only a chore since even in late game you have to replace them every once in a while since removin buildings (even if done rarely I don't want to use bots every time) also seems to wear them down.

Concerning the input in assemblers I am not shure yet if I regard that as a good idea. At least It forced one to move to higher tiers eventually, since the speed gain is not so large in most cases. But time will tell.

Stm

[wartthog]

Might I direct your attention to the mod I've been developing for the last couple of months: Stone Age Factorio. It's primary mechanic: the tool slot.

Hi Builder! I did already mention your mod but it got a bit buried in the epic back-and-forth going on. Keep doing what you're doing! And I still recommend you ask the devs for features which would make tools more moddable! I think there's a lot of potential there.

For everyone else who enjoys extending the game, this mod is worth checking out!

Time for me to take yet another tact.

Dude, I appreciate everything you've written so please don't take this as criticism, but rather an opportunity to learn. It's "take yet another tack". It's a sailing term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)

Your post about Puzzle play vs. Power Fantasy play has had me thinking a lot the past couple of days. I'm relatively new to the forum. Is this topic new or has it been discussed before? "The Taxonomy of a Factorian"

You say you are an Experience player, which is a subset of the Puzzle player. I've been thinking that I'm a Progressive player which is a different subset. I enjoy the puzzle as long as there's a reward of power at the end of it. I love bots, but only because of the struggle leading up to them. I love the feeling of fixing and simplifying and equipping and progressing!

[Rythe]

Time for me to take yet another tact.

Dude, I appreciate everything you've written so please don't take this as criticism, but rather an opportunity to learn. It's "take yet another tack". It's a sailing term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_(sailing)

Your post about Puzzle play vs. Power Fantasy play has had me thinking a lot the past couple of days. I'm relatively new to the forum. Is this topic new or has it been discussed before? "The Taxonomy of a Factorian"

You say you are an Experience player, which is a subset of the Puzzle player. I've been thinking that I'm a Progressive player which is a different subset. I enjoy the puzzle as long as there's a reward of power at the end of it. I love bots, but only because of the struggle leading up to them. I love the feeling of fixing and simplifying and equipping and progressing!

Appreciated! I have a loose phonetic memory when it comes to spelling words, so sometimes it gets typed silly and weird.

I was expanding out Bartle's Taxonomy to make it more Factorio specific. There's a feeling of progress element mixed behind each that I was ignoring for my setup, but is a powerful hook in general (level up!). Your play style emphasizes that hook, so yah, Progressive Player would be between a Power type and Puzzle type. You appreciate the two different types of Achievement that those two groups focus on (~Power Rank vs Challenge Success with Capability Rewards factoring in a bit differently for each).

I'm not sure if I'm the first to go this far in on the taxonomy angle in the history of this forum, honestly... But it's a good time for it now that Wube is returning to the game's core.

[Avezo]

That steam age mod makes early game more complicated than non-electric later game as far as powering up entities goes. While idea itself might be nice, it's a bad design for the actual vanilla gameplay. Early game has to be non-complex.

I think stopping at burner-entities is fine. 3 Different kinds of assemblers can be replaced with just a single, slow burner-assembler and single electric-assembler. Make burner-assembler either slower or energy-inefficient to promote progress into 'real' assemblers. Maybe even make burner-assemblers just 2x2.

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Gotta say though, the more I think about all this streamlining, the more I think that the entire early burner-phase could be just scrapped. Just let us start with solar powered panels generating steam (current solar panels in the game are technically a photovoltanic panels) - there exist solar panels that use solar heat to heat up water, which then can could be used just as already existing steam in the game in actual steam engines/turbines.

Early game is already annoying enough. If someone enjoys it, I think it's better to leave it to mods - make vanilla start with electricity from the beginning.

[Mike5000]

Early game is already annoying enough. If someone enjoys it, I think it's better to leave it to mods - make vanilla start with electricity from the beginning.

I'm curious. What for you is the point of Factorio? I enjoy exploration and progress but I don't enjoy replicating megabase blueprints until I give up in UPS frustration.

And why do you think it better to dump so much work rather than retaining and improving the burner tier while allowing those who would rather start at a later tier the option of so doing?

[Avezo]

Early game is already annoying enough. If someone enjoys it, I think it's better to leave it to mods - make vanilla start with electricity from the beginning.

I'm curious. What for you is the point of Factorio? I enjoy exploration and progress but I don't enjoy replicating megabase blueprints until I give up in UPS frustration.

There is no actual point, it's a sandbox game.

And why do you think it better to dump so much work rather than retaining and improving the burner tier while allowing those who would rather start at a later tier the option of so doing?

All of it could still be done with mods, nothing is dumped or taken from those who enjoy such playstyle. When talking about pure vanilla it all actually boils down to new player experience and as far as that goes, even game developers say in their press page:

"Factorio is a slow paced game in the beginning. If you are making a first look / preview video please consider to play the game yourself for some time (couple of hours). That should give you a good overview of what the game is really about (and also some experience )."

Taken from: https://factorio.com/press-and-youtube
I'm grasping straws here, but only a little: "what the game is really about" part pretty much indicates that early "burner" stages are not-"what the game is really about".

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That being said, I'm rarely starting a new map, but if I had to start anew now, I would probably cheat up some basic modular armor with construction bots and few basic tech like solar panels to pretend I'm actually a properly prapared explorer on a new planet instead of survivor who needs basic tools as if it was cave age or something.

Really, current early burner stage is merely a remnant of early game design, much of it was already scrapped (and for a good reason). I think scrapping it totally from vanilla would actually benefit both those who love and hate it - it would create bigger push for full-blown cave-to-steam-age mod with tech tree spanning over all techs like in civilization games, whereas those who hate it would get easier access to "electric" part of the game.

Or maybe there should be an option in map gen like "player profile":
- Space crash survivor - you get to start from scrap with all the burner things
- Prepared explorer - you get basic tech like construction bots and solar panels mentioned earlier
- Rich kid wannabe hero - you get everything, apparently funded by parents or somesuch

[Mike5000]

Or maybe there should be an option in map gen like "player profile":
- Space crash survivor - you get to start from scrap with all the burner things
- Prepared explorer - you get basic tech like construction bots and solar panels mentioned earlier
- Rich kid wannabe hero - you get everything, apparently funded by parents or somesuch

Yes, allowing players to choose their starting research/resources is the way to go.

Not throwing out trains, bots, mods, or burner phase or whatever else some subset of players prefer not to use.

[Avezo]

Or maybe there should be an option in map gen like "player profile":
- Space crash survivor - you get to start from scrap with all the burner things
- Prepared explorer - you get basic tech like construction bots and solar panels mentioned earlier
- Rich kid wannabe hero - you get everything, apparently funded by parents or somesuch

Yes, allowing players to choose their starting research/resources is the way to go.

Not throwing out trains, bots, mods, or burner phase or whatever else some subset of players prefer not to use.

As an idea it does sound great indeed. But - game developers have to face the question - how many players would actually use each of those options? I think vast majority would end up using either easy-electric start or go full cheaty-rich-kid mode, which would make development time spent on steamy-burner-phase "deeply-sub-optimal".

But I might be wrong, I have no numbers on how many players enjoy what kind of gameplay.

[eradicator]

But I might be wrong, I have no numbers on how many players enjoy what kind of gameplay.

If minecraft is any indication most people would opt into the early burner phase. There's tons of super high-tech mods that grant you flight invincibility and one-hit-kills in the end, but they all start with punching down a tree with your bare hands to make a stick, and a bench and a pickaxe. You should never underestimate the fact that the sense of achievement you get in the end is directly related to how lowly you started.

Personally i enjoy the change of pace when starting a new map and not being an invincible marathon runner that gets his every wish automatically delivered. I've probably launched less than 10 rockets ever, becaues i enjoy the sense of progression and designing neat blueprints, and when an infinite technology just magically upgrades everything instantaenously there is no sense of progression for me.
_____

@posila:

The tool slot is very nice to have a place that intuitively relates to an item being "equipped". I.e. when i want to know if a player has sufficiently advanced to be allowed to do $task. Just checking if the player is carrying something in his inventory breaks immersion. And abusing the weapon slots for that breaks combat because you suddenly have non-weapons in the weapon-cycle. I'm not talking about pickaxes as such, more like upgradeable tools i.e. for extending your reach, or allowing you to interact with new objects that otherwise wouldn't do anything. I don't mind the axe being gone from vanilla, but keeping equipment slots for mods would be much appreciated. Not sure what you were planning to do about the UI, if the tool slot was simply "removed" from the current layout it would leave an ugly hole.

[Rythe]

The attitude of mods for thee and vanilla for me is exactly backwards. Vanilla should be designed as a well-rounded experience in that it has gameplay aspects that appeal to a variety of player types. Mods are for focusing on and expanding out niche aspects to more specifically cater to a smaller subset of the vanilla player base. Vanilla is also suppose to contain the gentle introduction for the newest of newbies. This is how Factorio sells the most units, by appealing to the most players within a cohesive game design.

So mods are there to give you that electric start you want so badly (which is a skip of the gentle introduction phase). Not vanilla.

And however much people don't want to believe it, burner phase is a really easy fix at this point, and once fixed, it does become a really good newbie introduction scheme compared to electricity. Coming to another subforum soon.

Now to beat on the pickaxe topic just a little more. All the rationale for ditching the pickaxe can be applied to armor. I use the tank as my armor until MK 2 power armor is built. That's light, heavy, modular, and MK1 I never even build once. But making armor and pickaxe simple research powerups puts you in a weird place where you have a game so pedantic about crafting that every single cannon shell is individually assembled but not your equipment or armor.

This weirdness does not make a great, immersive experience.

*Edited in link.

[Mike5000]

OPEN QUESTION TO SANDBOXERS / POWER PLAYERS

What part of Factorio's current sandbox mode fails to meet your needs and leads to your desire to change the vanilla "game" into another "sandbox" mode?

Maybe there's a simple solution that can make us both happy.

[meganothing]

Now to beat on the pickaxe topic just a little more. All the rationale for ditching the pickaxe can be applied to armor.

No, not all.

1) Armor is expensive to build. This expense can apply again if you are killed and can't retrieve your backpack.

2) Armor can be swapped to provide different bonuses, for example the combat armor with many shields and personal defense and the builder armor with 2 roboports and exoskeletons.

[meganothing]

OPEN QUESTION TO SANDBOXERS / POWER PLAYERS

What part of Factorio's current sandbox mode fails to meet your needs and leads to your desire to change the vanilla "game" into another "sandbox" mode?

Maybe there's a simple solution that can make us both happy.

You do realize that it is only Avezo who wants to remove the burner phase? From what I read on the forum it seems power players just want an option to immediately have bots (which would be only selectable after the first play through).

[Rythe]

2) Armor can be swapped to provide different bonuses, for example the combat armor with many shields and personal defense and the builder armor with 2 roboports and exoskeletons.

Oh noes. The tiniest subset of players who care enough to have a whole two module loadouts would find their game experience the tiniest bit worse.

Strangely, I can't find it in me to care.

Edit: And now I'm thinking of the benefits! Never again will a player have half their inventory end up on the ground because they accidentally unequipped their armor.

[RocketManChronicles]

2) Armor can be swapped to provide different bonuses, for example the combat armor with many shields and personal defense and the builder armor with 2 roboports and exoskeletons.

Oh noes. The tiniest subset of players who care enough to have a whole two module loadouts would find their game experience the tiniest bit worse.

Strangely, I can't find it in me to care.

Edit: And now I'm thinking of the benefits! Never again will a player have half their inventory end up on the ground because they accidentally unequipped their armor.

Come on man, that is uncalled for. Although it is an interesting idea, it is one I do not agree with either. Better to be nice than be like that to others who have different opinions. Constructive conversations are the point of these forums, not to act like children.

I would prefer to leave the armor as is since it gives playability paths. It gives options.

[Rythe]

Come on man, that is uncalled for. Although it is an interesting idea, it is one I do not agree with either. Better to be nice than be like that to others who have different opinions. Constructive conversations are the point of these forums, not to act like children.

I would prefer to leave the armor as is since it gives playability paths. It gives options.

Oh right. This is the internet. The real point is that if people don't care about my experience, then fair's fair and I have no reason to care about theirs.

The second point is that I'm basically right. Same logic against the pickaxe hits the armor. Most of the armor's cost is in the research, I think, and that's adjustable too.

So both stay or both go is the reasonable stance.

[meganothing]

2) Armor can be swapped to provide different bonuses, for example the combat armor with many shields and personal defense and the builder armor with 2 roboports and exoskeletons.

Oh noes. The tiniest subset of players who care enough to have a whole two module loadouts would find their game experience the tiniest bit worse.

Strangely, I can't find it in me to care.

Edit: And now I'm thinking of the benefits! Never again will a player have half their inventory end up on the ground because they accidentally unequipped their armor.

That wasn't the point. The point was that there is a difference between armor and pickaxe. It may not be really big, actually it IS not really big, but it is there. And it may be enough of a reason that Wube is not thinking about removing it.

By the way, I don't care much either way. The benefit of never shrinking inventory would definitely sweeten the deal.

Now carry on with your drama

[Mike5000]

And however much people don't want to believe it, burner phase is a really easy fix at this point, and once fixed, it does become a really good newbie introduction scheme compared to electricity. Coming to another subforum soon.

I think it would be appropriate for yellow splitters to not need green circuits, and for filtering and priorities to not be available until red and blue splitters.