Friday Facts #424 - Gleba Pentapod Enemies

[adam_bise]

I play with a group of friends, one of them doesn't want to see creatures with 0 or 1 leg like snake, beause of crippling phobia, another one doesn't want to see creatures with more than 2 legs, for the same reason, and i don't want to shoot biters that have 2 legs only, so it would be nice if devs could find an appropriate number of legs for the ennemies so that we can all play together thank you !

/sorry

LOL bro, my group consists of a guy who has a gripping phobia of creatures with a negative number of legs, and myself with a fear of fractional legs.

We deserve equal consideration in this regard.

Good luck devs!

[FasterJump]

I think eggs will be produced in the biochamber... so in theory you have to harves one manually to craft a biochamber and then with that chamber you can produe more. The issue is that if you don't process them fast enough they will hatch on your belts and thus cause damage. That part of factory production line will need to include turrets in the design in case any enemy spawns as a byproduct. Not a big deal, taken individually those are not a big threat.

IMG_1467.jpeg
Certainly seems like a possibility

Hanging wrigglers upside down in a biochamber seems a bit... extreme? I didn't expect Factorio to go this direction. Also we're processing wriggler embryos. I guess I'll have to get over it.

It makes sense. But I have to say I hope it is not the case. Killing the locals in a battle is one thing, but indefinitely constraining one and torturing it to produce eggs so I can exploit it's potential offspring is a completely different level of wrongness. I really hope the eggs are produced by cloning or something.

And lastly, I would like to say that I really, really, really want to see some of the designs deemed too alien.

Agreed, we'd be like the bad guys in Oddworld (the tear extraction machines).

[gnutrino]

LOL bro, my group consists of a guy who has a gripping phobia of creatures with a negative number of legs, and myself with a fear of fractional legs.

We deserve equal consideration in this regard.

Good luck devs!

Can I interest you in my root-two-opod?

[FasterJump]

To add a precision, I think that the biochamber concept is cool, but maybe just mention in the flavor text that the wrigglers are maintained unconscious. Or even better, mention that the wriggler inside is artificially grown, like synthetic meat (hence doesn't have a functional nervous system). Nothing a mod can't fix anyway.

[Terrahertz]

Well, just removing the legs of those enemies is dealing with one very specific phobia, what if it's not about the legs but the eyes?

Would'nt it be better if the "Phobia-Mode" would just turn all enemies into hitboxes with the enemy name in it?

Surely someone will be able to tolerate low fidelity enemies to get the achievments and then switch to a mod introducing HD enemies that do not trigger their specific phobia.

[gGeorg]

Personal laser defence looks still OP.
All kinds of lasers should get dmg reduced by range. Then dmg at max range is 10% of laser max dmg. Min range has 100% dmg of course.

I think rule of cool applies. Running around zapping everything like an R-type is kinda silly. Remote commanding an army of spider gods to lay waste to the land looks good.

spiders can have assault weapons, like rockets.
Laser DEFENCE should be mostly effective on lenght of hand.
Also, after removing fixing the flow, add some new physically correct behaviour would be nice.

[MeduSalem]

I play with a group of friends, one of them doesn't want to see creatures with 0 or 1 leg like snake, beause of crippling phobia, another one doesn't want to see creatures with more than 2 legs, for the same reason, and i don't want to shoot biters that have 2 legs only, so it would be nice if devs could find an appropriate number of legs for the ennemies so that we can all play together thank you !

/sorry

LOL bro, my group consists of a guy who has a gripping phobia of creatures with a negative number of legs, and myself with a fear of fractional legs.

We deserve equal consideration in this regard.

Good luck devs!

Can I interest you in my root-two-opod?

What about imaginary number of legs? :>

Well, just removing the legs of those enemies is dealing with one very specific phobia, what if it's not about the legs but the eyes?

Would'nt it be better if the "Phobia-Mode" would just turn all enemies into hitboxes with the enemy name in it?

Surely someone will be able to tolerate low fidelity enemies to get the achievments and then switch to a mod introducing HD enemies that do not trigger their specific phobia.

Put a pixelated filter like in certain japanese videos, or censor bar like in Starship Troopers. xD

Just for the LULz that is how I would do it if I were the devs because I think that a filter shader like that would not be that hard to implement and they would not have to touch the original content. Total meme potential too.

[Grillmax]

I hope that with the combat balance mentioned at the end they will make some much needed changes to slowdown / poison grenades, discharge defense and such

[bnrom]

About 1 in 6 adults have trypophobia; about 3-5% have true arachnophobia. Reducing your market by about 20% seems silly; small developers need to cover their costs, and a low-effort solution to make sure 20% of their population purchase the expansion and don't ask for refunds is just good business.

1/6 seems an absolutely wild statistic, what is your source? I imagine it is a self-report of survey asking people whether they experience "discomfort" looking at holes. Similarly, it estimated that between 3.5-6% of the population have arachnophobia, however, again it will be being estimated by asking people to self-report on a survey whether they have a "fear of spiders," e.g., if they get spooked by real life spiders (which is pretty reasonable given the existence of black widows!).

I highly doubt that even 0.1% of the player base is such they have a strong enough reaction to virtual spiders or virtual holes that it lessens the fun of the game (e.g., a mild fear / discomfort might well heighten the enjoyment of Gleba). I can imagine many might need the occasional break, or they might just plan to visit Gleba last after researching powerful weapons, and then use nukes liberally, but these reactions are quite different from not being able to enjoy the game.

The fraction of players affected is actually even smaller, because there will likely be several options to disable or mod-out the enemies. I am almost certain that there will be the option to turn off enemies entirely (and likely turn off enemies on a per planet basis), and several player or dev created mods. As such, we are talking about the fraction of players who

- a) have extremely strong un-fun reactions to spider-like entities, AND who
- b) despite that want to fight enemies on Gleba, AND who
- c) can't use mods to replace the graphics (e.g., want achievements or are using a platform without mod support)

Creating custom graphics for this tiny fraction of the player base seems a challenge, as for it to be worth doing (and better than just disabling the enemies) a lot of polish is required. There are several issues. For one, one can't easily remove the legs as they are integral to the mechanics (e.g., how the body moves, the legs causing contact damage, the enemies moving over walls, etc...).

For what it is worth, I approve of the devs creating these spider like enemies, and pushing for Gleba to be a truly hostile alien environment. For the vast majority of players this commitment to a considered and strong atheistic will improve the game. If you try to please everyone (or more if you try to not offend everyone) then you will end up creating something mediocre that pleases none, and that is not Factorio.

[mmmPI]

LOL bro, my group consists of a guy who has a gripping phobia of creatures with a negative number of legs, and myself with a fear of fractional legs.
We deserve equal consideration in this regard.
Good luck devs!

Can I interest you in my root-two-opod?

What about imaginary number of legs? :>

You guys are not helping really, everytime there's some irrationnal things mentionned my understanding gets negative about half of the time . I can never remember which one is what, like when you put the ennemy in a box and you only know the number of legs when you open the box. Before the box is opened the number of legs is imaginary i think but not sure about the others

I like the idea of the pixelated filter that's like when the sims goes to the bathroom

[bnrom]

As others already pointed out, getting rid of peaceful mode does sound annoying and feels a little like a step back to old alien drops. Other than that I like the design.

I am certain they will a) keep peaceful mode and b) keep the option of entirely disabling enemies (and likely allow disabling enemies on a per planet basis!).

Am I missing something in the FFs where they say otherwise? I'd be willing to bet they'll just provide a way to craft bio-reactors when the Gleba enemies are entirely disabled (e.g., an alternate recipe or a non-enemy renewable source of eggs).

[Saphira123456]

As others already pointed out, getting rid of peaceful mode does sound annoying and feels a little like a step back to old alien drops. Other than that I like the design.

Am I missing something in the FFs where they say otherwise? I'd be willing to bet they'll just provide a way to craft bio-reactors when the Gleba enemies are entirely disabled (e.g., an alternate recipe or a non-enemy renewable source of eggs).

You are, from a previous FFF.

Look at the way they failed to allow refrigeration in order to force players to build small agricultural bases here on Gleba. This is basically telling people "You'll play the way WE want you to play, and YOU WILL LIKE IT!"

This tells me that enemies will be forced ON, with no more peaceful mode. All enemies are now mandatory all the time.

It also tells me that players will have no agency, no way to change that if they want to play a different way, just as you don't have any agency to change the way you deal with their new spoilage mechanic.

[AveryCorvus]

About 1 in 6 adults have trypophobia; about 3-5% have true arachnophobia. Reducing your market by about 20% seems silly; small developers need to cover their costs, and a low-effort solution to make sure 20% of their population purchase the expansion and don't ask for refunds is just good business.

1/6 seems an absolutely wild statistic, what is your source? I imagine it is a self-report of survey asking people whether they experience "discomfort" looking at holes. Similarly, it estimated that between 3.5-6% of the population have arachnophobia, however, again it will be being estimated by asking people to self-report on a survey whether they have a "fear of spiders," e.g., if they get spooked by real life spiders (which is pretty reasonable given the existence of black widows!).

WebMD and NIH.

I don't cite sources because I trust that anyone capable of being on these forums is capable of using Google.

If you're going to tell me that the epidemiologists used by those sources don't actually do research, they just trust self-reporting... I mean, that's some paranoia right there.

Regardless, trypophobia is a particularly interesting phobia because most phobias are based on an irrational fear, and has no basis in human instinct. E.g. children seem fine with bugs, it's only when adults teach them to be afraid that the cycle begins thus: feeling anxiety at the sight of a bug, feeling relief when it goes away, which reinforces the anxiety for the next time, which reinforces the relief for the next time, which reinforces the anxiety for the next time, and so on. By the time they reach adulthood, disentangling the sheer quantity of anxiety they feel is a huge undertaking.

However, trypophobia appears to be based on human instinct to avoid things with a ton of holes (insect mounds, potentially toxic fungi, etc.) which creates the initial burst of anxiety when exposed/relief when avoided, and is thus found to be a lot more common than other phobias. There's still debate about whether it truly counts though.

That's all beside the point though.

I would genuinely like to hear your reasoning why an 'arachnophobia mode' would affect other people's play experience. People keep acting like the suggestion, a toggle that disables legs and/or eyes (which admittedly WOULD make the game harder since the Stompers attack with their legs, but at least it would be playable), hurts their gameplay, or makes the game substantively worse in some way.

I haven't seen any arachnophobe or trypophobe suggest changes that would affect any other player but them. And the change that was suggested, an optional toggle, some extra code in the rendering culling code, and a modified sprite sheet, were suggested because they're extremely low-effort compared to any other request. They're the minimum viable product.

[Korsun7124]

OK, once you see it you will never be able to unsee it. The new Stomper legs look like a penis, from the body up to the kneecaps. I'm just saying that what it looks like, and you got 5 of them per creature.

[mmmPI]

I don't cite sources because I trust that anyone capable of being on these forums is capable of using Google.
I mean, that's some paranoia right there.
There's still debate about whether it truly counts though.

In case you didn't know sometimes it happens that things on the internet are not correct even if google gave them to you, i should send you a couple links about how to turn lead into gold i've tried to illustrate but you can probably find the crap yourself, just ask google. So when someone ask you for source, it's more asking what made you think the stuff you read is legit ? can you send it so we can also evaluate the serioussness of the thing and be convinced by rationnal argument expected in serious publication.

Instead when you call paranoia the act of doubting your unsubstanciated claim, while at the same time mentionning that you are not sure what you said is true because the debate is still ongoing, you are not making any argument at all.

Here is argument against : if you need 50 version of each ennemy to please everyone packed into the game, that's only 1 out of 50 things you have bought and downloaded and installed and loaded that you use. It would be much more efficient if those were mods shipped individually to players who wants them or even designed by them thanks to the many possibilites of modding, this way if new phobias emerge from the debate, they could be retro-actively cancelled even if the game is already published.

I'm saying this because there is this phobia called solastalgia, which is emotional or existential distress caused by environmental change which can trigger into players when they read proposition that seem to lead to a lot of unecessary bandwith waste due to all those spritesheet.

[Shuisman]

I just noticed that in the first video, after watching it several times, that there is actually rain! Somehow I completely missed that! Would it influence the map?

[bnrom]

WebMD and NIH.

If you're going to tell me that the epidemiologists used by those sources don't actually do research, they just trust self-reporting... I mean, that's some paranoia right there.

Yes, psychology generally relies on self reports. Crafting the questionnaires, paying people to take them, doing statistics on the results, writing up papers, etc... that is what most psychology research looks like.

This paper appears to be the most cited one on the topic found by google scholar:

Le, A. T. D., Cole, G. G., & Wilkins, A. J. (2015). Assessment of trypophobia and an analysis of its visual precipitation. Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology, 68(11), 2304-2322. https://doi.org/10.1080/17470218.2015.1013970

Quoting from the abstract:
"We developed and validated a symptom scale that can be used to identify “trypophobia”, in which individuals experience aversion induced by images of clusters of circular objects. The trypophobia questionnaire (TQ) was based on reports of various symptom types, but it nevertheless demonstrated a single construct, with high internal consistency and test–retest reliability." - emphasis added.

For context, this is a highly regarded paper on the topic (and one of the core papers that along with others estimate rates, yes - based on self reports). That is how psychology works.

Quoting from the paper itself:
"""Self-report scales are central to the measurement and assessment of anxiety disorders, such as arachnophobia (Szymanski & O'Donohue, 1995), ophidiophobia (Klorman, Weerts, Hastings, Melamed, & Lang, 1974), or claustrophobia (Radomsky, Rachman, Thordarson, McIsaac, & Teachman, 2001), and the literature reports developments and refinements of numerous scales to serve this purpose (e.g., Beidel, Turner, & Morris, 1995; Cutshall & Watson, 2004; Salkovskis, Rimes, Warwick, & Clark, 2002)""" - emphasis added.

[bnrom]

I would genuinely like to hear your reasoning why an 'arachnophobia mode' would affect other people's play experience. People keep acting like the suggestion, a toggle that disables legs and/or eyes (which admittedly WOULD make the game harder since the Stompers attack with their legs, but at least it would be playable), hurts their gameplay, or makes the game substantively worse in some way.

My central point was that
1. There will almost certainly be a no-enemies mode anyway (since a significant fraction of the player base likes to at least sometimes play without enemies, including, for example, some of the most popular factorio YouTubers such as DoshDoshington and Michael Hendriks)
2. There will almost certainly exist mods to remedy the issue

As such, the pros and cons for a built-in acachnophobia mode are:
Pros:
- People who want to fight enemies on gleba, who also are unable to use mods, and who have extreme arachnophobia can enjoy the game when they otherwise wouldn't.
Cons:
- Development time and effort that could be spent on more impactful things (e.g., quality of life improvements that effect all players).
- And, as I attempted to illustrate, the dev time for this is potentially significant. For example, the devs highlighted in an earlier FFs that they hated having the research queue be an option set at world generation as it lead to branched code-logic, and that this duplication took dev time and added ongoing overhead to bug fixing. An "arachnophobia mode" could cause similar issues.

Dev time is not free, and it seems to me that the cons outweigh the pros.

Quote regarding the research queue - Friday Facts #376:
"Over the years there have also been a fair share of bugs related to the research queue that we have had to fix, and having 2 code paths and GUI layouts in all the places (Queue vs No Queue) was becoming annoying. In the end we decided to just completely embrace the research queue, and remove all the code related to not having it enabled."

[Svip]

Considering that it's the egg rafts - and not any of the actual enemies themselves - that deliver the key ingredient, turning off the enemies would be a trivial feature to implement here; just leave the egg rafts, that then don't spawn an enemy when they otherwise would have, but merely yield pentapod eggs when destroyed.

[AlikDex]

I think we need to add refrigeration containers for long distance egg transportation or storage. Which are equipped with a motor and a battery (nuclear). Similar to eggs in our world, refrigeration inhibits fetal development and can be stored for quite a long time. This would require additional resources, possibly setting up logistics from other planets, but would give players the option of not having the constant stress of hatching eggs.