Friday Facts #427 - Combat Balancing & Space Age LAN

[XT-248]

* PLD damage nerf - yes, please. PLD's were stupidly overtuned: 50% more damage output while draining x16 (!) less power compared to the Laser Turret.

Minor nitpick: while it would be nice if these were vaguely in line with each other, they are really not comparable because there is no way to transfer power between armor and the electric grid.

How would I have enough personal laser defense modules in my armor's or Spidertron's equipment grid to consume most, if not all, of the 'new Space Age fusion reactor,' which can produce 2.5 MW, up to 6.25 MW, when one PLD only consumes 75 kW?

I wouldn't mind increasing the PLD power demand in exchange for a higher damage yield.

[motmontheinternet]

"offsetting" is such a strange way to look at it. When a balance change is made, it's not like the thing that was changed has a buff/debuff in the game itself. It's just the new default. Quality affects PLD the same way it affects everything else, it increases its stats higher than the default.

If a tool that has been fine for years is suddenly not fine because a new system is added, that indicates a problem with the new system, not the old tool. Quality stops being optional when every tool is balanced around its performance at max Quality. Quality also loses a lot of its appeal when everything is balanced around making sure the +150% buff from max Quality is much less than a +150% buff from pre-2.0 performance.

Cutting the performance to 1/3rd is an insanely huge adjustment. I don't think I've ever seen a balance adjustment that dramatic in any reasonably well-balanced, combat-focused game. The only way it makes sense is if there's some major new addition we haven't been told about yet... and most of those possibilities would be considerably more powerful than the current PLD.

Also, the nerf was really needed. I know from experience that they're simply way too overpowered. Anything that isn't a behemoth is completely obliterated in 0.01 seconds. And for no ammo or cost whatsoever. Now we will just use destroyer bots to achieve that effect, but those are actually balanced because you have to produce them.

An opinion isn't sufficient to justify such a dramatic nerf. A chaff clearing tool that clears chaff biters (and only effectively in one phase of the game) is perfectly fine to many of us. It's an automation game and some of us don't mind seeing parts of combat automated. Since PLDs are optional in every sense of the word, if you don't like them, don't use them. That gives you what you want without taking things away from people who don't want to deal with the usability issues combat robots have.

"No cost whatsoever" is a blatant misunderstanding. Grid space is a cost, and it's consumed both by the PLDs and the reactors/batteries used to fuel them. You might not think it's enough of a cost, but again you don't have to use them, or you can just stack fewer PLDs and more of the roboports/shields/exoskeletons we'll all be using instead.

I don't think effectively removing an option makes for more interesting or vibrant combat. At a minimum if we're going to go through with this, give us some sliders to tune combat equipment in the world settings. Laser resistance, fire resistance, etc. We shouldn't have to make a mod to fix the balance of the game.

I think the core of the issue here is that you want combat to be a lot easier than it’s supposed to be. This nerf, like many balance changes, represents the correction of a mistake. If you want combat to go back to being really easy, then you are free to change your biter settings. But the default should have balanced difficulty. And no overpowered items that make everything else obsolete.
The nerf is dramatic, I agree, but PLD was also dramatically overpowered. I mean keep in mind that it’s named “laser defense”, all it’s really supposed to do is keep biters away from you. It should be able to do that just fine with a 3rd of its current power.

You don't know what overpowered means, and you don't know what balance means. The item now does nothing and will never be used. Nobody cares what the item is called, by the way.

[Chrisdasdasd]

Well I don't like how you planning on cutting personal laser damage by factor of 3

But could I also mention another annoyance of how canon trains are slower than cargo ones?

[GregoriusT]

But could I also mention another annoyance of how canon trains are slower than cargo ones?

Pretty sure 100 Inventory Slots worth of Arty Shells and 40 Slots worth of Cargo Slots, are the reason they are so different in weight.

[Nemoricus]

I'm not keen on the increases to spawner and worm health. Combat already isn't much fun, and making it take longer, even with all the tools you have, isn't going to make it more fun for me.

[morsk]

I don't mind nerfs if they improve the overall balance, but I'm surprised the devs are willing to super-nerf lasers by 66%, but won't nerf endgame beacon spam even when it ruins the game's visual style completely. The beacon truly has a charmed life. (Don't worry beacon fans. It's obviously never going to be nerfed. I'm just marveling at this, in contrast to lasers.)

[cheetored20]

this change to PLD's is begging for a spidertron variant that can shoot cannonshells

Calling it now, we are getting a Scorpion designed for breaching walls and hard enemies that use cannon shells from its claws... also maybe missiles along its back? or flamethrower turrets?

Edit: Was thinking about the space exploration mod, and now im wondering if railguns would fit?


Also i HEAVILY DISSAGREE with the PLD change. Im a player that likes to turtle up and doesn't really want to take out nests in the first place because it scary out there yo. I also SKIP THE TANK ENTIRELY for the most part, so that boost to tank stuff might be interesting. Getting rid of biter bases is hard enough as is for my playstyle (which involves leaving and coming back after work or something.)... that being said that playstyle was developed BECAUSE of biters in the first place.

That being said, im planning on going in for SA with default settings.

[Gemma]

[Moderated by Koub : off topic]

[Vesfeer]

Fun idea - hive super spawner, aka. a single colossal hive creating 10x the bitters laying on top of a huge ore cluster, not built by the bitters

[bobucles]

Combat balance is always a tough one. If anything, nests should probably scale harder. The evolution curve is asymptotic, going from 0 to 0.5 is pretty simple compared to 0.80- 0.90, which is trivial compared to 0.95 to 0.99. If enemies are going to get meaner it's going to be on the very last bits of that curve.

The evolution curve is pretty strange in general. It's functions as a form of game score, but does so in a way that is difficult for game balance to manage. The score gets distorted above 0.8 and becomes a black hole horizon above 0.95. That's dipping into post-game territory where modders want the most room to play. How much raw evolution is 0.99, how much is 0.999, how are biters supposed to scale in this realm where floating point math starts to break down? Who knows!

Why not just, treat the score as a score? It's not difficult to translate important thresholds like 0.5, 0.8, 0.95 into flat values such as 1k, 10k and 100k, and it's not difficult to translate big numbers back into the 0-1 scale either. There are plenty of math curves that can handle this type of scaling such as square root and log.

[phantomlemon]

I don't mind nerfs if they improve the overall balance, but I'm surprised the devs are willing to super-nerf lasers by 66%, but won't nerf endgame beacon spam even when it ruins the game's visual style completely. The beacon truly has a charmed life. (Don't worry beacon fans. It's obviously never going to be nerfed. I'm just marveling at this, in contrast to lasers.)

Maybe re-read Friday Facts #409 - Diminishing beacons

[Ranakastrasz]

Combat balance is always a tough one. If anything, nests should probably scale harder. The evolution curve is asymptotic, going from 0 to 0.5 is pretty simple compared to 0.80- 0.90, which is trivial compared to 0.95 to 0.99. If enemies are going to get meaner it's going to be on the very last bits of that curve.

The evolution curve is pretty strange in general. It's functions as a form of game score, but does so in a way that is difficult for game balance to manage. The score gets distorted above 0.8 and becomes a black hole horizon above 0.95. That's dipping into post-game territory where modders want the most room to play. How much raw evolution is 0.99, how much is 0.999, how are biters supposed to scale in this realm where floating point math starts to break down? Who knows!

Why not just, treat the score as a score? It's not difficult to translate important thresholds like 0.5, 0.8, 0.95 into flat values such as 1k, 10k and 100k, and it's not difficult to translate big numbers back into the 0-1 scale either. There are plenty of math curves that can handle this type of scaling such as square root and log.

Agreed. To be fair, the spawn chance of various enemies scales off of that value directly, meaning you get a few of a new enemy type quickly but it takes way longer to saturate, but i doubt it would be hard to calculate it later instead of upfront.

[kitters]

Personal lasers - We found them to be too strong (especially as you can have multiple), so we nerfed their damage by 66%.
So there is nothing too groundbreaking, but we hope over time we are moving towards a better place.

Damn. Nerfed lasers by a factor of three - nothing too groundbreaking

[kitters]

If you not want care about repetitive combats - PLD is just for stay safe. Without? I Just turn off biters and other enemies due I am not a fan a large part of military in automation games. The same thing o in Dyson Sphere - when they add combat I just stop playing it.

PLD is not a problem with high DMG but power consuming, consume too small amount of power and without any way to replace used batteries in armor - we are lost. So, add replaceable batteries in armor and charging station and make them as ammo slot and PLD for consistency.

Good solution right here.

p.s. I wish this forum to have like/dislike system...

[numzero]

How would I have enough personal laser defense modules in my armor's or Spidertron's equipment grid to consume most, if not all, of the 'new Space Age fusion reactor,' which can produce 2.5 MW, up to 6.25 MW, when one PLD only consumes 75 kW?

That’s just base tech. Shooting speed upgrades keep energy per shot the same so, power consumption increases.
Damage upgrades however, keep energy per shot the same too thus making lasers more efficient. Much more efficient.

PLD currently drops off in the late game or even the midgame if you aren't playing optimally

Maybe you’re just not using enough of them?

spoiler

Снимок экрана_20240908_220649.png (93.97 KiB) Viewed 680 times

(Shields? Those are in the spidertron).

Sure, this requires recharging. But last time I tried a single charge was enough for quite a few bases. And it can be tweaked for total damage vs DPS.

Also worried about the PLD changes.I have had to clear thousands of nests containing at least 300 spawners, and even with mods allowing me more than 100 PLD in the armor, it always takes forever. You are talking about multiplying the amount of PLD by 4 to get the same efficency back (base efficiency + laser resistance buff).
Surely there should be some compensation, like increasing the amount of damage upgrade percent one gets from the research?

At that point it’s likely better to just nuke them. Less hassle, definitely (mind the shockwave though).

Though of course, everyone plays differently. E.g. I don’t play deathworld (except of that one time I took it as a challenge; won with “raining bullets” and “steam all the way”) and may play with biters disabled altogether—while some don’t even consider anything other than deathworld marathon...

[morsk]

I don't mind nerfs if they improve the overall balance, but I'm surprised the devs are willing to super-nerf lasers by 66%, but won't nerf endgame beacon spam even when it ruins the game's visual style completely. The beacon truly has a charmed life. (Don't worry beacon fans. It's obviously never going to be nerfed. I'm just marveling at this, in contrast to lasers.)

Maybe re-read Friday Facts #409 - Diminishing beacons

It does nothing at endgame, only lets midgame builds use a few more beacons, and makes it easier for mods to change beacons. These things are good, but the lack of endgame beacon nerfs is suspicious. I assumed some deep anti-nerf doctrine was protecting them, but lasers don't get the same treatment. They must need a better lobbyist.

[bobucles]

The PLD nerf probably won't be too bad. Yes 1/3 is a big loss, but at the same time players are getting far stronger low tech tools to play with. The shotgun buff is not trivial, and the combat drone buffs will definitely give stronger forces than before. But the main issue isn't the strength of PLD but that it looks silly. The player becomes a walking disco ball of death, and making them use more lasers for battle won't fix that.

Hmm. Speaking of combat drones, why doesn't PLD work that way? Instead of being a personal laser, it launches a combat drone that fires lasers. The combat strength gets a better visualization, and it offers more exciting dials for game balance. For example the drone could have HP and attract fire, now its no longer a pure weapon but also a defense tool. If it gets attacked it could be destroyed, which adds a resource cost to combat. Stuff like that. A player with 20 laser drones could look pretty cool in battle, and it offers a cue that they could have even more laser drones if they so wanted.

[Phren]

I've always felt like combat is in a bit of a weird place in Factorio. On the one hand the early dances with biters can be fun, and I don't like playing with no biters at all. But it always felt odd to me that the offensive combat is all based on the player, when everything else is about automation.

Only right at the end do you get the ability to build the artillery, and using them is still quite heavy on player interaction. If you're playing on a slower game, like marathon or with mods that slow the game down (looking at you, SpaceEx) you end up spending a long time driving round in your tank made of paper hoping there isn't one square of water that will lead to getting stuck and dying.

I'm sure people will tell me just to turn the biters off - and I've tried it, but I don't really like it. I would rather run another deathworld; and I think if people are routinely turning the biters off because they're too annoying to play with, the balance is probably off.

[Vesperon]

I can imagine that a group of fast legendary spidertrons with like 20+ legendary PLDs in each one of them is so powerful that it might have prompted such a radical rebalancing. And my wild guess is that the devs weren't fans of how powerful and scaleable PLDs already had been, without quality, as an offensive weapon. Although I wonder, since those legendary beasts are supposed to take a LOT of time and resources (and pollution!) to make, will they not come as just terribly expensive toys when artillery trains are just so much more efficient and probably come much sooner?

I was also surprised that the FFF sounded like the balancing is done for multiplayer rather than single player: "During one of our playtestings we actually underestimated them a little bit, and were pleasantly surprised when the mid-game nests were giving our tanks some trouble instead of being steam-rolled like before."

Experienced players will manage somehow or adjust settings or install some mod that reverts these changes, but especially new players might not be so patient, knowledgeable and resourceful, some could just give up. Players who want to play just 2.0 or SA without quality might find the hardened nests much more tedious to clear if quality makes a big difference.

I like to build megabases with the core game mechanics on (i.e. with biters and pollution), but I don't agree with the criticism that this rebalancing is terrible for big scale clearing. There is one method that is by far the least tedious for clearing thousands of spawners. It has nothing to do with PLD, it's artillery. I don't like that artillery has been nerfed (destroying nests in late game will cost more artillery shells), but the increased cost and more time needed isn't too bad.

To conclude, I think that the combat rebalancing is questionable, but the devs have been doing such a great job so far that I have a lot of faith in them.

[woobilicious]

Initially the 66% nerf to PLDs seemed huge, but then the more I thought about it, I realised:

Everyone comparing PLD pre-nerf to PLD's post-nerf, aren't getting the point, The entire point of a nerf is to push your play style *away* from using PLDs as your primary offensive weapon.

You're meant to compare the nerfed PLD to other weapons, you're meant to consider them *combined* with late game weapons, the fact you can use PLDs by themselves with no help from other weapons, and the fact that the mind set is just "it'll take 30x longer to destroy spawners" is the part of the problem, You've completely forgotten other weapons exist.

You can still use Uranium Ammo, Rockets, Drones, Laser Turrets, Artillery, and you can still have an army of Spidertrons with PLD's following you if you want full AFK mode.

Obviously there's questions about whether the 66% nerf, or it combined with the 10x spawner HP increase is excessive.

But the fact that once you unlock PLDs and a fusion reactor you become god-like and neglect all other aspects of personal defense for the rest of the game, that you no longer need to do turret creeping, can do a full speed build on spidertron, with your own PLD grid destroying late game bases with impunity, says there's something seriously wrong with balance.

This nerf positions PLD's squarely as support weapon, and efficiently clearing bases is now a problem that needs to be solved with planning instead of just walking through.

The only thing that I'm wary of is that Spidertrons are extremely limited in damage options and PLD's still feel required since rockets tend to do self-damage, IMHO They should have gun turrets and an auto cannon, Or perhaps late game you should be able to remotely control tanks for support.