Friday Facts #228 - High resolution turrets

[Yemto]

I love that the laser turrets gets beams, that have been bothering me a while. But I'm not really a fan of the new base for them, I feel like it's a half finished base, or it's for something else. But they decided to just slap a laser on top of it last minute.

[ske]

Will the new lasers overheat when firing too fast and need new crystals (maintenance) from time to time?

[Shaftoe]

While we are at it, could we get a medium game gun turret? Longer range, better armor?

[Oktokolo]

While we are at it, could we get a medium game gun turret? Longer range, better armor?

I guess, they meant the flame turrets to be the medium game gun turret. That beasts are quite devastating and work with any sort of oil (so they are cheap on ammo).
A combination of machine gun turrets, flamer turrets, and robo ports is good against everything the biters will throw at it.

But if you keep your pollution perimeter clean, you will not need anything beefier than machine gun turrets with piercing ammo at the walls (i sometimes do not even build walls). Don't let them become fat and strong on your hard-earned and glorious clouds of freedom and prosperity.
You have to defend your smog - it is your smog after all!

[Cazadore]

I really dig the new turrets and the redesigned laser turret but i must say that i would prefer a "charge up, heavy hit laser beam" instead of the continous beam. Imagine the obelisk of nod.

Imo this would make laser-turrets the heavy hitters and chaingun turrets the rapid fire "trash disposal" buildings. Then we could have a "target priority" system. (Like turrets/units in "they are billions")

Just my two cents. Have fun

[molerat]

Does the windows version use OpenGL, or one of the direct X's?
...
To any who are curious, its an intel HD4000.

On Windows we plan to use DirectX 11 (which your card supports)

I did not realize that anyone had responded to me. Glad to hear this. Thanks for the response.

[ejg]

As pictured in the action movie, the laser turrets on cliffs should have a wider range or more destructive power as placed on flat ground.
This would add a use for cliffs.

Range and impact by altitude only comes into play with projectiles affected by gravity obviously (e.g. Arrows and such.). Laser beams diverge over distance so their damage should decay with distance from the turret with 1/L^2 (if you would want to put some realism in it)

[ske]

As pictured in the action movie, the laser turrets on cliffs should have a wider range or more destructive power as placed on flat ground.
This would add a use for cliffs.

Range and impact by altitude only comes into play with projectiles affected by gravity obviously (e.g. Arrows and such.). Laser beams diverge over distance so their damage should decay with distance from the turret with 1/L^2 (if you would want to put some realism in it)

Their power density decreases at that rate.

If there is absorption, the power itself decreases exponentially.

The damage then could have a minimum power density at which power density it starts (or an s-shape curve for damage per area vs. power density).

This in sum would make for some interesting damage characteristics over distance. We might tune it so that each turret has its ideal range where it's a lot better than any other turret. Currently, it seems that laser turrets are better than anything else. (Better range, No fuel/bullets needed, huge damage.)

[Shaftoe]

While we are at it, could we get a medium game gun turret? Longer range, better armor?

I guess, they meant the flame turrets to be the medium game gun turret. That beasts are quite devastating and work with any sort of oil (so they are cheap on ammo).
A combination of machine gun turrets, flamer turrets, and robo ports is good against everything the biters will throw at it.

But if you keep your pollution perimeter clean, you will not need anything beefier than machine gun turrets with piercing ammo at the walls (i sometimes do not even build walls). Don't let them become fat and strong on your hard-earned and glorious clouds of freedom and prosperity.
You have to defend your smog - it is your smog after all!

So i get that i dont ever post, so you might take me for a newb, but i've played this game for a long time, and build megabases. I'm aware of exactly how everything works right now. I find it unsatisfying that while i can pump out depleted uranium ammo, there is little point. I would LIKE to have the logistical challenge of fortifying at least part of my basees, say satellite mining facilities or something with ammo turrets, but there really isn't any point. Yes they are about twice as good at killing biters end game, but the logistics of moving power around and my giant reactor complexes make the obvious and correct solution to just use lasers. What I would like is for the game to give me any reason to do something different - at least in vanilla.

Hence my comment.

[Tricorius]

While we are at it, could we get a medium game gun turret? Longer range, better armor?

Yup. I think I get the current distribution. And I get that flame turrets are suppose to be this. I actually enjoy a self-imposed logistics challenge to supply remote outposts with ammo for standard turrets and flame turrets. (I still think it is pretty funny to hear people complain about bots being overpowered and then see their bases connected by power poles and walled by lasers.)

I've had to adjust my supply systems a bit to account for artillery ammo, which was a pretty fun puzzle challenge. As is, there isn't too much challenge advancing and distributing ammo tech, but it is there a bit (mostly in the production phase as turrets feed whatever ammo you dump into them)

I have gone back and forth a bit on the best way to supply ammo turrets. As-is I pretty much dump gun ammo on belts and use bots to distribute oil barrels and artillery shells.

That said, I'm not sure that a medium gun would incentivize putting forth the effort to build all this as opposed to lasers if one isn't already inclined to do so.

I've actually begun self-imposing generating local outpost power as well. When you don't have the massive reserves of a main base power system, it is more compelling to minimize power at outposts. One of the first things to go is lasers.

[Oktokolo]

So i get that i dont ever post, so you might take me for a newb, but i've played this game for a long time, and build megabases.

Grats.

What I would like is for the game to give me any reason to do something different - at least in vanilla.

The laser turrets are there to make the game enjoyable for the mainstream. They will not go away and will probably not get nerfed either.
But you don't have to use them. If you need a mod to remove them so you do not get tempted all the time - tell me and i make it.

[tazdu29]

So i get that i dont ever post, so you might take me for a newb, but i've played this game for a long time, and build megabases. I'm aware of exactly how everything works right now. I find it unsatisfying that while i can pump out depleted uranium ammo, there is little point. I would LIKE to have the logistical challenge of fortifying at least part of my basees, say satellite mining facilities or something with ammo turrets, but there really isn't any point. Yes they are about twice as good at killing biters end game, but the logistics of moving power around and my giant reactor complexes make the obvious and correct solution to just use lasers. What I would like is for the game to give me any reason to do something different - at least in vanilla.

Hence my comment.

Ammo turrets ? you can use belts only or trains + belts to dispatch the ammo.
You can even run without run without electricity at all using burner inserter for ammo. That's what I do, with a giiiiiiaaaaannt belt running all around my base, and distributing both coal and piercing round ammo (even if i'm at 130h+ in the game)

[Shaftoe]

So i get that i dont ever post, so you might take me for a newb, but i've played this game for a long time, and build megabases.

Grats.

What I would like is for the game to give me any reason to do something different - at least in vanilla.

The laser turrets are there to make the game enjoyable for the mainstream. They will not go away and will probably not get nerfed either.
But you don't have to use them. If you need a mod to remove them so you do not get tempted all the time - tell me and i make it.

.... or, the devs could implement a mid-range tier 2 turret like i suggested, which was I made the suggestions to the devs, not to you. Thanks but no thanks to your mod - and thanks for reminding me why i dont post on forums.

[bobucles]

Anyone can reply to anyone's suggestion, that's the point of a public forum. There's no need to get salty over it.

Combat isn't really the prize focus of Factorio. Most of the joy comes from building the factory. Getting weapons is one more factory puzzle to solve and having good weapons will reward players who need to expand. In the end it all feeds into the factory.

It is fair to say that Factorio combat is pretty simple. The most important factor is neither having the best variety of guns nor the skill to use them. Instead the most important combat factor is having a successful factory to build, supply and upgrade those weapons. This makes combat balance VERY tricky in terms of making difficulty levels, because the challenge factor is a player's building skill more than anything. It's pretty reasonable to state that simple factory goals should give simple weapons, while more difficult factory projects should be rewarded with superior weapons and tech. That does happen, for the most part.

I don't see how a greater variety of turrets will change anything. Turrets already establish several flavors of logistic challenges. One needs ammo feed, one needs energy feed, and one needs liquid feed. Can a new turret make a new puzzle to solve? Maybe not. A "mid range" turret with more range than guns but less range than lasers ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme, and it SHOULDN'T matter. The player isn't being evaluated on his ability to mix and match every weapon's strength to its fullest. The player is being tested on their ability to build factories. Why add complex weapon schemes that emphasize a goal the game doesn't have?

[Tricorius]

I don't see how a greater variety of turrets will change anything. Turrets already establish several flavors of logistic challenges. One needs ammo feed, one needs energy feed, and one needs liquid feed. Can a new turret make a new puzzle to solve? Maybe not. A "mid range" turret with more range than guns but less range than lasers ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme, and it SHOULDN'T matter. The player isn't being evaluated on his ability to mix and match every weapon's strength to its fullest. The player is being tested on their ability to build factories. Why add complex weapon schemes that emphasize a goal the game doesn't have?

I think this is supported by the fact that a standard gun wall with every other gun slot taken, piercing ammo, and a double-strength wall can pretty much guard against waves of biter groups even at max evolution. I tend to overkill my walls like crazy, but a standard wall (with repair bots) will stand against most everything.

And now with artillery turrets they don't even stand a chance of getting close enough to swarm.

[dgw]

And now with artillery turrets they don't even stand a chance of getting close enough to swarm.

Am I missing out by playing with only the artillery wagons in my current save and not using the stationary artillery? Can they target things that the mobile version can't, like firing ahead of incoming biter groups to pick some of them off en route? (If not, that would be an interesting mod.)

I don't see how a greater variety of turrets will change anything. Turrets already establish several flavors of logistic challenges. One needs ammo feed, one needs energy feed, and one needs liquid feed. Can a new turret make a new puzzle to solve? Maybe not. A "mid range" turret with more range than guns but less range than lasers ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme, and it SHOULDN'T matter. The player isn't being evaluated on his ability to mix and match every weapon's strength to its fullest. The player is being tested on their ability to build factories. Why add complex weapon schemes that emphasize a goal the game doesn't have?

I agree with this whole post, but I've quoted only the relevant paragraph. While a new turret type might not bring a new logistical puzzle to solve, I would like to see more uses for the existing ammunition types. Rockets and cannon shells are only usable in vanilla by the player and the tank, respectively. Rocket turrets might be a bit ridiculous, I admit (especially since the atomic bomb is also, technically, a rocket)—but having cannon towers as a step in between guns and artillery could be interesting, especially if the cannon can track incoming mobile units in some fashion to soften up behemoths or take out clusters of small/medium biters.

But I'm just spitballing. The existing turrets have been quite adequate in my experience for any level of biter evolution, if adequate defenses are built. The new ones would be more for variety than anything else.

[Tricorius]

Am I missing out by playing with only the artillery wagons in my current save and not using the stationary artillery? Can they target things that the mobile version can't, like firing ahead of incoming biter groups to pick some of them off en route? (If not, that would be an interesting mod.)

I've not seen them be able to automatically target biter groups. They seem to only automatically target nests / worms. However that is enough to keep a buffer around your pollution clouds. You can, however, manually lead targets and do a decent job blasting biter groups. It's easier to just let your walls pick them off though.

While a new turret type might not bring a new logistical puzzle to solve, I would like to see more uses for the existing ammunition types.

I would like this as well, simply to give a reason to automate other types of ammunition. Artillery shells helped me automate portions of the military chain beyond gun ammo and combat bots. But it is far from necessary. And I agree that nuke towers would be pretty powerful, although I haven't used a nuke near buildings.

Perhaps anything in its path would be destroyed. Which means you don't just want to load any old tower with nukes.

[Mekronid]

I don't see how a greater variety of turrets will change anything.

The biggest change is that you'll have a greater variety of turrets. So, there's that.
Ya know, we didn't need water or cliffs either. Heck we didn't even need graphics; the whole game could be in ASCII.

The point of variety is to keep things fresh and varied. I'm not advocating for or against the idea, I just think the quoted line of reasoning is inane.

[Nefrums]

The new turret models looks good!
But I think the models fails to reflect the durability of the turrets. The gun turret looks more sturdy than the laser turret, but the laser turret has alot more hp.

[bobucles]

The point of variety is to keep things fresh and varied. I'm not advocating for or against the idea, I just think the quoted line of reasoning is inane.

Variety for the sake of variety is called bloat. Reckless bloat only causes balance issues and creates a pointless learning curve for new players. Veterans aren't going to explore far beyond things that simply work, and why should they? If the existing weapons work well, there's no need to push beyond that. There is a legitimate reason to push beyond ordinary turrets because ammo supply gets more difficult and large biters become a serious drain on resources. Flame turrets represent a powerful support option that is easy to reach and not difficult to pipe. Lasers are more complicated on tech but are totally worth it.

What does this mythical turret do that can't already be done with the existing turrets? Make your case if it's that important.

Hint: A bad argument looks something like "It's a good idea and not liking it is dumb."