Friday Facts #427 - Combat Balancing & Space Age LAN

[Grillmax]

this change to PLD's is begging for a spidertron variant that can shoot cannonshells

[Molay]

this change to PLD's is begging for a spidertron variant that can shoot cannonshells

Autoturrets. A spidertron that can just shoot thousands of uranium ammo at a ultra rapid pace. Now that would be fun to me. It would be quite expensive, too, which is what I guess they want for combat?

[KuuLightwing]

Autoturrets. A spidertron that can just shoot thousands of uranium ammo at a ultra rapid pace. Now that would be fun to me. It would be quite expensive, too, which is what I guess they want for combat?

And have it look like this.

[GregoriusT]

Ideally, I wanted the pollution to spread out much further and attract many times more biters than it was. But when I tried, the pollution always seemed to be sucked right up by the first ring of biter nests and the nests behind them were not contributing to attacks. In my head, I wanted to achieve old school Gauntlet levels of biters around my base where there are literally so many of them that they form a wall of biters around my base lol

There likely is no limit to how much pollution can spread. Anyone who played Warptorio knows just how far that insane pollution cloud can reach beyond nests, to the point of constantly generating so many new chunks and more biter attacks, that the game lags into unplayability.

FWIW, I use PLDs for accessibility reasons, as the manually fired weapons are too hard to use.

Hard to use because they slow you down the moment you hold the Shoot Button.

Or hard to use because the game drops latency hiding, jolting around your cursor the MOMENT you hit the Shoot Button, making it absolutely impossible to aim properly. (devs, stop dropping latency hiding for no reason, when hitting the Shoot Button, seriously, i know you said "no" for no reason, but this is a serious issue, gameplay is more important than the projectile looking like it comes out of the Player/Vehicle)

(okay your case might just be general difficulty in aiming and shooting, in which case having Automatic Gun Defense in your Armor would be nice)

[gravityStar]

After the PLD debuff, you are partially able to offset the PLD debuff by using Quality components. But the Quality mod is supposed to be optional, and is only available to players who purchase Space Age. This creates an issue: players who don’t buy Space Age are stuck with the PLD debuff and have no way to offset it through the quality system. My concern is that this debuff might feel like a punishment to players who either choose not to buy Space Age or prefer not to engage with the Quality mechanic.

A possible solution could be to tie the PLD debuff directly to the quality mod. That way, the mod provides both advantages (through quality components) and disadvantages (which can be mitigated by improving quality).

But this is exactly what I want. I want to invest zero brainpower, I just want to shoot enemies for the lulz. For entertainment, because shooting down stuff this way is relaxing and a nice change to the brainwork required for the real Factorio, the base building. I don't see enemies as challenge - they're entertainment. And they are obstacles you need to clean out, like rocks and cliffs and water. The game would be too bland without such things.

I completely agree with this. Wiping out biters should be a fun, temporary distraction from the real core of the game: building the factory.

[pcrumpton8]

that lan party looks like its all white guys, does the playerbase of factorio really look like this? are there so few POC or women?

[Grillmax]

this change to PLD's is begging for a spidertron variant that can shoot cannonshells

Autoturrets. A spidertron that can just shoot thousands of uranium ammo at a ultra rapid pace. Now that would be fun to me. It would be quite expensive, too, which is what I guess they want for combat?

to be completely fair, u238 is a disposable byproduct after setting up kovarex, im partial to putting it on the bus because it will nicely extend my military production block.

Having the walking death machine be a true upgrade to the tank by being able to slot in 4 rocket launchers, or tanks for cannon turrets would be amazing (and ridiculous but lets suspend disbelief for a moment since we dont have a cannon weapon in the hand slot.) maybe slotting in 4 rifles will turn it into the rain of bullets you envision by having 4 guns shoot like how PLD's work instead of chain firing

Expansion was never supposed to be cheap, either you needed a lot of power to keep laser turrets satisfied or ammo to keep gun turrets satisfied, and walls will deplete your stone patch the fastest

[Mango]

that lan party looks like its all white guys, does the playerbase of factorio really look like this? are there so few POC or women?

Proof of concept?

[CyberCider]

After the PLD debuff, you are partially able to offset the PLD debuff by using Quality components. But the Quality mod is supposed to be optional, and is only available to players who purchase Space Age. This creates an issue: players who don’t buy Space Age are stuck with the PLD debuff and have no way to offset it through the quality system. My concern is that this debuff might feel like a punishment to players who either choose not to buy Space Age or prefer not to engage with the Quality mechanic.

A possible solution could be to tie the PLD debuff directly to the quality mod. That way, the mod provides both advantages (through quality components) and disadvantages (which can be mitigated by improving quality).

"offsetting" is such a strange way to look at it. When a balance change is made, it's not like the thing that was changed has a buff/debuff in the game itself. It's just the new default. Quality affects PLD the same way it affects everything else, it increases its stats higher than the default.

Also, the nerf was really needed. I know from experience that they're simply way too overpowered. Anything that isn't a behemoth is completely obliterated in 0.01 seconds. And for no ammo or cost whatsoever. Now we will just use destroyer bots to achieve that effect, but those are actually balanced because you have to produce them.

[ataaron]

that lan party looks like its all white guys, does the playerbase of factorio really look like this? are there so few POC or women?

Its in eastern europe not muerica.

[Molay]

that lan party looks like its all white guys, does the playerbase of factorio really look like this? are there so few POC or women?

the lan party is made up of modders and content creators for the most part afaik, and specifically, modders and content creators willing to pay for a trip to Prague, which can cost a pretty penny. It's exactly the demographic I expect, maybe katherine of sky is hiding somewhere too, I don't know.
I don't know a single content creator for factorio that's not of european descent, but obviously the game sells in non european/american markets too. A rather complex game about building and engineering probably just clicks best with middle aged europeans/americans? It's not exactly the same appeal as say The Sims, which will be quite a bit more diverse and notably have more women, or a shooter that has mass appeal but mostly among males of all origins

Different games for different people and all that. Personally I only know europeans and americans that play the game and no people of color, and for women I only know of katherine, though only as a content creator.

[yngndrw]

So that's where those little bits of stone come from! They've been driving me mad trying to find out where the source was and I've been building 8 lane stone filters only to find that they never appeared again. It all makes sense now!

[XT-248]

that lan party looks like its all white guys, does the playerbase of factorio really look like this? are there so few POC or women?

Proof of concept?

Person of color. Basically used to describe non-white people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

[Jap2.0]

I can't decide which post to reply to, so I'll leave this standalone:

My first question was also whether rocks would still drop stone when mined. I'm glad that they do. I don't mind that change, because I really only ever make use of them in the early game, where being able to collect them is a more interesting way to get some furnaces/burner miners up.

[wodzu93]

Thoughts from someone who enjoys dealing with pressure of biters and engages in combat a fair bit.

* Nest HP scaling - exactly what was needed. Nests were way too squishy past early-mid game. It corrects the mid and mid-late game fragility, while at endgame artillery will automate nest clearing just as it does today. It might cost 2 shells per nest, but with expansion's scale of productivity increase (productivity techs, advanced buildings with built-in productivity, quality), double cost of artillery shells is nothing. This change will also make infinite damage techs actually relevant - in 1.1, they are just a nice QoL, but in expansion I'll actually WANT to invest in these, since nests will be much tougher.

* PLD damage nerf - yes, please. PLD's were stupidly overtuned: 50% more damage output while draining x16 (!) less power compared to the Laser Turret. PLDs were so much better than every other option available for personal combat, it made everything else basically pointless. So it looks like they will now be relegated to a support role, augmenting your main weapons and throwables. Mind you, you can still get the 1.1 OP PLDs in the expansion, it will just take either high quality, or investing in infinite laser damage techs.

* Distractor / Destroyer buff - no opinion, as I haven't used these at all, I had no reason to when PLDs were killing everything for free. I'll definetly give those a try though once expansion drops.

* Cannon shells buff - no numbers on this, so I'll hope that non-explosive ones got enough of a buff to kill a Big Biter in one hit (which they can't right now). My tactic with a Tank is to circle-strafe a biter base while lobbing shells at nests (and PLDs killing biters chasing me) - a stopped Tank is a dead Tank, so I don't ram. Looks like either nothing changes here, or PLD's will be augmented with combat robots or poison capsules.

* Rocket acceleration buff - good change. Rockets are decent, but slow speed was an issue, nice to see it resolved.

* Shotgun Shells buff - unexpected... I quite like the shotgun, it's the most economical weapon to kill nests with in early game, which is exactly what I use it for before rockets are unlocked. It was okay at clearing Small Biters short distance away, but it sucks at picking them off when they get into melee range. This damage up won't help with the latter, but will considerably buff the former - reducing pellets needed to kill from 3-4 to 2, which is a big buff here.


Things that I'd like to see:

* Flamethrower turret nerf - this thing is also ridiculous. For those who don't know, the fire DoT flamethrower turrets apply on contact deals 100 damage/s for 30s. This is enough to kill Behemoth Biters by itself (3k HP, exactly as much as the total damage from the DoT). Anything that is not a behemoth dies in 3s or less just from being grazed by the flame, without counting any direct damage, ground puddle damage AND without any damage techs at all. You can literally defend your entire base off of 1 or 2 pumpjacks on depleted oil deposits on a deathworld with flamethrower-turret-only wall when covered by roboports for wall repairs. I assume this is not touched, because there will be fire-resistant enemies on Vulcanus, making flame turrets presumably not effective there. Still, I'd suggest to SHARPLY increase oil consumption, by a factor of 10 at least, to match oil consumption of the handheld flamethrower (which applies the same 3k total damage DoT as the turret by the way), so it at least has an operating cost to justify its massive damage output. Expansion will add Tesla and Rocket turrets and buff the lasser turret, but those will still pale in comparison to the walled perimeter of fiery death in both damage output and economy if flamethrower turret are not nerfed.

[Hantu]

"offsetting" is such a strange way to look at it. When a balance change is made, it's not like the thing that was changed has a buff/debuff in the game itself. It's just the new default. Quality affects PLD the same way it affects everything else, it increases its stats higher than the default.

If a tool that has been fine for years is suddenly not fine because a new system is added, that indicates a problem with the new system, not the old tool. Quality stops being optional when every tool is balanced around its performance at max Quality. Quality also loses a lot of its appeal when everything is balanced around making sure the +150% buff from max Quality is much less than a +150% buff from pre-2.0 performance.

Cutting the performance to 1/3rd is an insanely huge adjustment. I don't think I've ever seen a balance adjustment that dramatic in any reasonably well-balanced, combat-focused game. The only way it makes sense is if there's some major new addition we haven't been told about yet... and most of those possibilities would be considerably more powerful than the current PLD.

Also, the nerf was really needed. I know from experience that they're simply way too overpowered. Anything that isn't a behemoth is completely obliterated in 0.01 seconds. And for no ammo or cost whatsoever. Now we will just use destroyer bots to achieve that effect, but those are actually balanced because you have to produce them.

An opinion isn't sufficient to justify such a dramatic nerf. A chaff clearing tool that clears chaff biters (and only effectively in one phase of the game) is perfectly fine to many of us. It's an automation game and some of us don't mind seeing parts of combat automated. Since PLDs are optional in every sense of the word, if you don't like them, don't use them. That gives you what you want without taking things away from people who don't want to deal with the usability issues combat robots have.

"No cost whatsoever" is a blatant misunderstanding. Grid space is a cost, and it's consumed both by the PLDs and the reactors/batteries used to fuel them. You might not think it's enough of a cost, but again you don't have to use them, or you can just stack fewer PLDs and more of the roboports/shields/exoskeletons we'll all be using instead.

I don't think effectively removing an option makes for more interesting or vibrant combat. At a minimum if we're going to go through with this, give us some sliders to tune combat equipment in the world settings. Laser resistance, fire resistance, etc. We shouldn't have to make a mod to fix the balance of the game.

[CyberCider]

"offsetting" is such a strange way to look at it. When a balance change is made, it's not like the thing that was changed has a buff/debuff in the game itself. It's just the new default. Quality affects PLD the same way it affects everything else, it increases its stats higher than the default.

If a tool that has been fine for years is suddenly not fine because a new system is added, that indicates a problem with the new system, not the old tool. Quality stops being optional when every tool is balanced around its performance at max Quality. Quality also loses a lot of its appeal when everything is balanced around making sure the +150% buff from max Quality is much less than a +150% buff from pre-2.0 performance.

Cutting the performance to 1/3rd is an insanely huge adjustment. I don't think I've ever seen a balance adjustment that dramatic in any reasonably well-balanced, combat-focused game. The only way it makes sense is if there's some major new addition we haven't been told about yet... and most of those possibilities would be considerably more powerful than the current PLD.

Also, the nerf was really needed. I know from experience that they're simply way too overpowered. Anything that isn't a behemoth is completely obliterated in 0.01 seconds. And for no ammo or cost whatsoever. Now we will just use destroyer bots to achieve that effect, but those are actually balanced because you have to produce them.

An opinion isn't sufficient to justify such a dramatic nerf. A chaff clearing tool that clears chaff biters (and only effectively in one phase of the game) is perfectly fine to many of us. It's an automation game and some of us don't mind seeing parts of combat automated. Since PLDs are optional in every sense of the word, if you don't like them, don't use them. That gives you what you want without taking things away from people who don't want to deal with the usability issues combat robots have.

"No cost whatsoever" is a blatant misunderstanding. Grid space is a cost, and it's consumed both by the PLDs and the reactors/batteries used to fuel them. You might not think it's enough of a cost, but again you don't have to use them, or you can just stack fewer PLDs and more of the roboports/shields/exoskeletons we'll all be using instead.

I don't think effectively removing an option makes for more interesting or vibrant combat. At a minimum if we're going to go through with this, give us some sliders to tune combat equipment in the world settings. Laser resistance, fire resistance, etc. We shouldn't have to make a mod to fix the balance of the game.

I think the core of the issue here is that you want combat to be a lot easier than it’s supposed to be. This nerf, like many balance changes, represents the correction of a mistake. If you want combat to go back to being really easy, then you are free to change your biter settings. But the default should have balanced difficulty. And no overpowered items that make everything else obsolete.
The nerf is dramatic, I agree, but PLD was also dramatically overpowered. I mean keep in mind that it’s named “laser defense”, all it’s really supposed to do is keep biters away from you. It should be able to do that just fine with a 3rd of its current power.

[adam_bise]

Not necessary to install a mod, just change the "Attack cost modifier" under advanced settings when creating a world, or use console commands. Lower modifier will mean less pollution per biter and therefore more biters. You may also be interesteed in the Deathworld preset. 09-07-2024, 02-09-12.png

Awesome! Guess I missed that one

[Jap2.0]

* PLD damage nerf - yes, please. PLD's were stupidly overtuned: 50% more damage output while draining x16 (!) less power compared to the Laser Turret.

Minor nitpick: while it would be nice if these were vaguely in line with each other, they are really not comparable because there is no way to transfer power between armor and the electric grid.

[Hantu]

I think the core of the issue here is that you want combat to be a lot easier than it’s supposed to be.

That's a remarkably uncharitable take, one that discolors your previous comments. The core issues are I want combat to not be tedious by default and I don't want dramatic kneejerk balance adjustments that promise only to increase the present tedium.

This nerf, like many balance changes, represents the correction of a mistake. If you want combat to go back to being really easy, then you are free to change your biter settings. But the default should have balanced difficulty.

The default has been balanced just fine for 8 years, with biter options to increase the difficulty for those who want them. The only mistake "corrected" here is the bad balancing of the "optional" Quality system.

Also, the current adjustments for combat balance available in the base game don't work to naturally undo the nerf in the same way they currently work to naturally increase the difficulty of the base game. Without mods you can't undo this balance adjustment or the other balance adjustments people have suggested in the same way that you can simply make the game spawn more biters that evolve faster. Hence my suggestion to add more balance sliders to enemy settings to adjust their resistances, HP, etc.

PLD was also dramatically overpowered.

Given how PLD currently drops off in the late game or even the midgame if you aren't playing optimally, you need to actually prove this claim.

I mean keep in mind that it’s named “laser defense”, all it’s really supposed to do is keep biters away from you. It should be able to do that just fine with a 3rd of its current power.

It's not a forcefield and has no knockback, it needs to kill biters in order to keep biters away from you, and you already need to stack PLD in order for it to do that. With the changes and limited range, PLD will no longer be worth taking over utility or pure defense equipment. A direct damage nerf is basically the worst way to nerf PLD and this will make one of the most tedious segments of the game moreso.