Friday Facts #416 - Fluids 2.0

[mmmPI]

"most people rejoice now" is not really a good argument to disproove "they don't do that for mass appeal" x)

You haven't heard about proof of burden, have you? Right, not. Anyway, you're in the minority bud, these changes are happening.

Please don't make it personnal, all i'm saying is that "most people rejoice now" could very well be the result of an attempt to cater to larger appeal by the devs, that would be sucessful. ( according to your own word ^^ )

[frohg]

I hope they make it more complicated.

This seems like a step in the right direction, but I like having to figure out how the fluids will behave when designing a build.

Maybe the team can design some interesting complications involving the new machines. I hope there will be more to it than just connecting the pipes together any which way.

I’m a long time factorio player, made an account just to join the battle over this feature, hi

[BEEFE]

Just to brainstorm some ideas of varying levels of awful:

1. Total output from a segment is limited.
   1. The limit can correlate with the number of entities in the segment.
   2. Budgets can be separate for consumers and pumps.

...

Of these, (1) seems most promising and trivially easy to implement. It can mimic most of the current behaviour: simply set maximum output as a function of the number of pipes/storage tanks. Ta daa!

I'm happy to see other people independently coming up with the same idea, and the same conclusions about it. Something like that would introduce new flavors of jank of course, but it'd be predictable jank that could be understood intuitively. Here's hoping we get something like this!

[GregoriusT]

Something like that would introduce new flavors of jank of course, but it'd be predictable jank that could be understood intuitively. Here's hoping we get something like this!

excuse me, why do you WANT jank in a game like this? it is already painful enough to have to run two pipes of the SAME fluid next to each other because of jank, this is not fun at all.

[Mycroft4114]

I'll admit I'm puzzled by some of the reactions to this:

1) Many people are saying it would let you just build long pipelines or giant systems. But you can do that now - it works fine every time I've done it. How far are you trying to go? Because I've gone pretty far without issue.

2) People are complaining it removes a puzzle/challenge element from the game. I ask you, how different are your designs going to be, really, with this change? How many people are getting down into the fine, fiddly details of the fluid system instead of just hooking up the pipes from supply to demand and letting it work? Even playing Nullius, I never found I had to think about the fluid simulation, just about how to cram in all the different pipe systems.

3) To the people talking about this making pumps/ fluid wagons obsolete - remember, this change is in preparation for Space Age. While vanilla Factorio may be affected that way if you want to play it that way, there are planets in space age with unbuildable areas you will need to use trains to get across. Pipes won't be an option.

[mcdjfp]

My biggest issue is that the 1 giant pipe network per fluid is just way too close to the electrical system. It needs to be different somehow. If I continue playing with the new system, I suspect that my designs will start to resemble the electrical system. Make sure I have more production and supply, with some accumulators, sorry storage tanks, if the network needs extra capacity beyond what the 1 giant pipe segment provides.

There has got to be some way to soft cap the size of a pipe segment or add a design challenge different than belts and power. I don't know, maybe lower the max throughput if the pipe segment exceeds a certain length with certain buildings like pumps breaking segments up. If the information box clearly displays the segment length, and current max throughput it wouldn't be too confusing to realize when a segment is too big.

There just has to be something to create more thought that simply wire everything to the insert fluid here grid. I do that with power already.

[Kamera]

I enjoy simulation physics, it is a major draw for me in games. Deep down, I hope there's still a chance at debugging/reworking something akin to the Old System - but I fully recognize that it is an absurd level of dynamism for the gameplay demands in Factorio. There currently is never a situation where fluid flow needs to intentionally change direction, mix with another fluid (eg: a T junction to leak some pre-treatment chemical onto the main flow of fluid), or anything else such atomic simulations allow.

So a massively simplified system does make sense, but this initial version is way too simple for a system that will also affect non-DLC owners. I think a version with a little more segment granularity and additional fluid properties would be better, and even recreate some intuitive expectations (eg: last consumer along a pipeline gets less than the first one).

Granularity:
1. Instead of pipe segment = the entire network of contiguous pipes, a segment is the set of connected pipes between T or + pipe junction Nodes. All pipe segments that are connected to each other by nodes are part of a Network.

2. A segment's length is used to determine pressure drop and fluid travel time. Travel time would be used when segment capacity < 100% filled (ie: unpressurized, 1 atmos of pressure), otherwise it "teleports". The values at a specific pipe are sampled by junctions and non-pipe structures.

3. A junction node looks down each connected branch-of-segments to determine how to split or direct flow. Immediate segments with lower capacity filled percentage receive a proportionally higher split of all flows*. If all immediate segments are at 100%, the flow is proportionally split to each branch's pressure differential (this includes pressure drop, hence the look-ahead of entire branch but I'll be honest idk how necessary branch vs immediate segment is in terms of goofy exploits). The node's own fill% is a weighted average of immediate segments.
*Flows are created by the +/- flowrates and pressures of producers/consumers along with a passive component that is a function of the fill% difference between two segments and the fluid's viscosity.


Fluid Properties: with more performance overhead, and the new Decay mechanic for certain new solid products, maybe we can have more fun with fluid properties!

1. Pressurization! My understanding is the old system didnt really have this, it was like an open air trough and that's part of why theres the throughput issues with the DLC. Pressure should be a component of a producer's output (eg: X units/s @ Y psi). As a 100% filled pipe's pressurization increases, so does maximum throughput, but over-pressurization (>Y psi) and the producer stalls. Maybe exceeding a pipe's pressure rating causes damage. Different planets could have different atmospheric pressures that affect all of the above. Increasing and reducing pressure as needed in a network would be a fun challenge. Pumps in series vs parallel, tanks, etc.

A special note on Tanks: tanks are taller structures than pipes so fluid height and pressure head should be considered. Tanks could have a capacity threshold X that is analogous to the fluid height of a pipe. An unpressurized pipe segment can only proportionally fill a tank from 0 to X (eg: a 10% filled segment can only fill a tank up to 0.1*X capacity). Beyond that, more and more pressure is needed to fill the tank. Similarly, the tank passively drains with less flowrate and pressure as it's fluid height drops back down to X.

2. Temperature! This already exists, but with no losses to the planet's ambient temperature. It's a bit silly to keep a disconnected tank full of superheated steam unattended for days and the temperature never changes. But borrowing the Decay system, maybe it could finally be a thing and we'd either need to spend energy to keep unused fluids warm/cool or consume them as close to "on demand" as possible. Someone else mentioned coolant for machines, which is also an excellent idea but largely unrelated to the issue of Fluids 2.0.

3. Viscosity! Thicker goops move slower down unpressurized segments and require more pressure to move. Temperature could affect this.

[BEEFE]

Something like that would introduce new flavors of jank of course, but it'd be predictable jank that could be understood intuitively. Here's hoping we get something like this!

excuse me, why do you WANT jank in a game like this? it is already painful enough to have to run two pipes of the SAME fluid next to each other because of jank, this is not fun at all.

I don't want jank per se, what I want is for the inevitable jank to be intelligible to the player. The gap between underground pipes having zero volume is jank, but it's very obvious that this is the case and what it means for the player.

With "throughput reduced by the number of entities in a segment," some pipe arrangements would have higher throughputs than others when you'd realistically expect it to be the other way around, but it would still be obvious why the game physics would act at odd with real-life physics there.

[Loewchen]

The old New fluid system: https://jsfiddle.net/TheYeast/c9d2azjo

[DeaderDisabled]

I think it looks silly to sorund a machine with beacons.
I think its horendus to let inserters grab from the back side of underground belts (or from underground belts at all actualy).

The list can go on. There is however a very simple solution to all my gripes, and it's not yell at the devs and try to force my way of playing on others, its simply to not build my factory in that way.

So my suggestion for thouse who think this change will invalidate trains or that a single pipe supplying infinite througput is silly, is to simply not build in that way just because it is possible.

If you like trains, use them, no one is stopping you. If you think your nuclear plant looks better with a bunch of parallel pipes and some extra pumps, then build it that way, it will still work fine.

This is very much in line with my initial post. I'm not saying one way is better than the other all I'm saying is that I hope the devs give us the option to choose old fluid system or new. Now my ideal would be switchable in game, but I understand that could be really hard to implement. Even just giving an option at the new world creation screen would be enough for most people I suspect. Maybe have a warning next to it that says something like, "Warning, once the world has been generated you cannot change which fluid system it uses." Then everyone could build the way they want, and those who like the old system aren't forced to use the new and those who like the sound of the new system can use it. Additionally any currently built megabases won't necessarily become unplayable, the factory must grow after all.

[half a cat]

2) People are complaining it removes a puzzle/challenge element from the game. I ask you, how different are your designs going to be, really, with this change? How many people are getting down into the fine, fiddly details of the fluid system instead of just hooking up the pipes from supply to demand and letting it work? Even playing Nullius, I never found I had to think about the fluid simulation, just about how to cram in all the different pipe systems.

I posted an example of how a design is changed by fluid throughput here. Nullius needs more air than you can send down a single pipe. viewtopic.php?p=612658#p612658

[factoriogame1121]

I think the start of a space mod will destroy the Pyanodon mods, and possibly the game itself.

[adam_bise]

I hope they make it more complicated.

This seems like a step in the right direction, but I like having to figure out how the fluids will behave when designing a build.

Maybe the team can design some interesting complications involving the new machines. I hope there will be more to it than just connecting the pipes together any which way.

I’m a long time factorio player, made an account just to join the battle over this feature, hi

Welcome! I absolutely value complexity, but my idea of fun is not just trying things randomly until they work. I would rather look at the tooltips, make my calculations, envision a design, build it all out, and then see it work. I sometimes build crazy stupid big things like a 1500+ wagon water distribution plant, just because it is challenging. But it is annoying and time consuming when I have to keep reworking the fluid parts because the whole thing relies on which pipe was placed first and so on.

I think this is a step in the right direction, a good starting point. As I stated previously, the system has to be reliable and scalable first. I imagine some interesting changes will follow. I do hope they increase the complexity while keeping the baseline system reliable and scalable.

[Panzerknacker]

I hope they make it more complicated.

This seems like a step in the right direction, but I like having to figure out how the fluids will behave when designing a build.

Maybe the team can design some interesting complications involving the new machines. I hope there will be more to it than just connecting the pipes together any which way.

I’m a long time factorio player, made an account just to join the battle over this feature, hi

Welcome! I absolutely value complexity, but my idea of fun is not just trying things randomly until they work. I would rather look at the tooltips, make my calculations, envision a design, build it all out, and then see it work. I sometimes build crazy stupid big things like a 1500+ wagon water distribution plant, just because it is challenging. But it is annoying and time consuming when I have to keep reworking the fluid parts because the whole thing relies on which pipe was placed first and so on.

I think this is a step in the right direction, a good starting point. As I stated previously, the system has to be reliable and scalable first. I imagine some interesting changes will follow. I do hope they increase the complexity while keeping the baseline system reliable and scalable.

I hope you realize you're asking something that is not common in real life either. Many engineering problems in the real world also require trial and error, calculations can be helpful but will almost never lead to a perfect design.

I have no problem with the current behaviour of pipes. After a while you get a feeling for them, so the experimenting-phase becomes much shorter.

[Hiekie]

That's the first FFF about the new Factorio that I have just read and thought... hold on... so... you just did that? And this wasn't a build up to a series of trial and errors that eventually came out with something that worked similarly to the old system and was still workable?

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

I'd far prefer the old system, by a LONG way. The quirks are what makes it, not a watered-down perfect, zero-maintenance solution. It's just ripe for exploits that destroy the immersion in the game.

I realise that it's hard work, but the old system needs to be kept if this is the alternative. It adds nothing and takes away a huge aspect of the game, and makes fluids become "just connect this wire and it all works" which removes huge tracts of the fun. Completely destroys barrelling as well - what's the point when you can instantaneously transport all fluids everywhere? I can even see someone make a single long pipeline to a remote station and "schedule" the pipes with circuits to transfer every fluid product into a storage tank, switching using circuits as to what the current fluid is to pump, and what tank it's put into at the end. One pipe, eliminates the entire fluid, barrelling and train transport of fluids in one hit.

I don't "pipe up" (sorry!) often, but no... let's go back to the old way.

Totally agrees..

Piping becomes now as simple as connecting a wire to a powerpole..
Best of both ways would be a menu option if you want to use the old or new fluid system that can only be selected at the start of a new game.
I would definitly select the old more realistic system.

[Chief_Curtains]

Has there been any consideration to how pipelines in the real world work? If air batch interfaces were added to the pipe system, constant pressure would make sense. A system could be incorporated to add air slugs to the pipelines, so that batches of a fluid are only released at intervals which are controlled by the pump. Once a batch is built up in a pump, an air slug then propels it through empty portions of the pipeline, and filters could be added to create branches.

This could also allow one pipe to carry multiple fluids since the air slug would clean the fluid from the pipes until it hits a terminal point. If there is another fluid in the way that prevents mixing, the air slug will stay between them to maintain the batches.

[GregoriusT]

Piping becomes now as simple as connecting a wire to a powerpole..

No it actually doesn't, there is more to the new system than meets the eye. When your Machines drain so much Fluid in one go that the Pipes throughput gets reduced to nothing, you will have to find a solution, because a Pump alone will likely not help you, you might need to actually have a Buffer Tank (with two pumps) inbetween the Source and the Target Machines, just as an impromptu load balancer for spiked crafting loads, similar to how you sometimes need Accumulators for using Lasers.

All that the new System does is get rid of the nonsense that is spamming parallel pipes with pumps for throughput, which is an absolute pain in the butt repetitive job to do and in no way a "puzzle".

[mcdjfp]

And when my machines try to draw more power than I am producing what happens? Everything slows down until the shortage is fixed.


The same 2 fixes, either wire in more producers, or add accumulators (in this case tanks) to handle short surges in demand.

There is no point in fluids if they are simply power with different connectors.

Edit: The only minor difference being that you might need a storage tank or two if the pipes can't hold enough fluid to meet the demand on the other end. One minor difference is not enough to differentiate the two systems.

[gravityStar]

The old fluid system was unpredictable (it depended on build order) and removing it is a positive change. I had high hopes for the solution presented in fff-274, but that was never released. And there is no guarantee it would work with the 2.0 space age fluid volumes.

Instead we have the newly presented solution. It's predictable, fast (one-pass presumably) and simple. I guess that's fine then.

[FasterJump]

I believe that these changes are rushed, and I am against it because it removes the "thoughput" puzzle element from the fluid system. Also, the longer the pipe, the more throughput it will have, even if it's 1 tile wide: it doesn't makes sense.

This is one of the rare FFF I disagree with. For the record, I was favorable to the Quality FFF (imo it brings a new endgame mechanic: instead of just grinding mining or robot infinite research, we can now grind those fancy quality items/machines).