Friday Facts #416 - Fluids 2.0

[Cehash]

Wow, things are heating up for what sounds like the best option in a longstanding problem.

Personally, I wasn't impacted by the fluid problems, not much anyway. I may have had some unexplained problems here and there.

However, I'm willing to give up a little realism for the sake of both UPS and functionality.

What is the point of gaining UPS if the megabase you're building is dumbed down?

"Dumbed down" is really strong wording for what at the scale of a megabase is a frankly negligent change. What changes really in the gameplay loop? no more fighting with your pipe setups to work like intended? Gained UPS? If that's dumbed down that's one extra reason to expand my base if you ask me!

[nova4x]

Wow, things are heating up for what sounds like the best option in a longstanding problem.

Personally, I wasn't impacted by the fluid problems, not much anyway. I may have had some unexplained problems here and there.

However, I'm willing to give up a little realism for the sake of both UPS and functionality.

What is the point of gaining UPS if the megabase you're building is dumbed down?

"Dumbed down" is really strong wording for what at the scale of a megabase is a frankly negligent change. What changes really in the gameplay loop? no more fighting with your pipe setups to work like intended? Gained UPS? If that's dumbed down that's one extra reason to expand my base if you ask me!

Not to mention that the fighting would be one time since it would be a blueprint that is spammed everywhere anyways.

[Panzerknacker]

Wow, things are heating up for what sounds like the best option in a longstanding problem.

Personally, I wasn't impacted by the fluid problems, not much anyway. I may have had some unexplained problems here and there.

However, I'm willing to give up a little realism for the sake of both UPS and functionality.

What is the point of gaining UPS if the megabase you're building is dumbed down?

"Dumbed down" is really strong wording for what at the scale of a megabase is a frankly negligent change. What changes really in the gameplay loop? no more fighting with your pipe setups to work like intended? Gained UPS? If that's dumbed down that's one extra reason to expand my base if you ask me!

The base is now much easier to design since fluids used to be one of the more difficult parts. If there is no challenge (read: fun) to designing something, why would you design it at all. So by making it less challenging, they make it less reason to have more UPS.

[marrette]

Factorio's appeal is that its core mechanics produce logistics puzzles—how do you move things from source to destination?—and this change removes the puzzles for fluids. As Plop-and-Run mentioned, it's like turning belts into arbitrary-size chests.

Here's an example of how the fluid mechanics play in to producing argon. It's a trace constituent of air. You need a lot of air, too much to push down a long, low-capacity pipe. Even though you've used the same machines already for hydrocarbons, your hydrocarbon build can't handle the high throughput of air filtration. So you compress the air (round machines), use expensive high-capacity pipes (black), and separate production into compact modules with short pipes (distributed pairs of air filters). It isn't the same problem with renamed fluids, but something new.

argon.jpg

If fluid flow is instant, the problem is reduced to replicating what you've done before. Make space on the fluid bus. Copy and paste the old machines. Change the recipe.

bussy-argon.jpg

Instant fluid flow takes away the puzzles and leaves the chores.

+1

[JigSaW]

It's really disappointing to see a game that use to embrace its niche begin to lower the bar for mass appeal.

This. Seeing so much of gameplay aspects get simplified (combinators, trains, rails, etc.) with every month of FFFs makes me glad I've experienced Factorio at 1.x. Now i wonder if in a similar way the game has lost its depth from the 0.x era.

Also +1 to the previous message.

[fighterwing989]

Whenever I start a new game I'm generally lost most of the time as far as correct/optimal setups go. I'm playing just for fun to hook things up and kill bugs so it's nice to see stuff like this simplified for a more casual audience. I'm still worried about the whole multi-planet stuff though; I could never get through Space Exploration or Krastorio 2 and I probably won't have the attention span for that whole food spoilage thing from before but I'll give it a shot.

[fighterwing989]

This isn't fluids 2.0, it's fluids 0.5.

Absolutely horrendous decision, it completely removes the complex logistical puzzles related to fluids which were also unique to each big overhaul. The flow was an original mechanic with which you had to experiment, learn and master it, be aware of it's aspects and quirks, etc. And overhauls made it even more engaging while playing with the capacity/pressure numbers and/or adding completely new types of pipes (throughput-wise).

Sure, it wasn't perfect but this isn't fixing an issue with a janky non-ideial mechanic, this is simply removing it and/or dumbing it down (cos you absolutely could do 12-24k/s throughput builds before, i've done it in several overhauls). This is the same as if someone would remove all inserters from the game and replaced them with mini-loaders. I don't even care about vanilla experience, this will majorly hurt challenges of most overhauls.

Since quality (and high speeds of liquid production you could reach with it) seems to be the reason the flow mechanic was gutted you can at the very least make it an option to turn on or off in the settings, give your players a choice. What's even more frustrating is that quality (let me remind you, the most controversial new feature) is an addition to the old gameplay and is optional, but Fluids "2.0" takes things away from gameplay but you're forcing it on everyone.

I do agree with you about giving players a choice. I think a menu option before starting the game would be great. I'm more of a casual gamer so for me I just want to plug it in and get the thing. I always end up putting pumps all over to make it go because I don't really know what's going on and I honestly don't care to master it, I just want to build a big base and blow stuff up.

[Robot.Jay]

The old fluid system provided better gameplay, because it featured a puzzle type (length-dependent friction/resistance) not otherwise present in Factorio. During a player's earliest (low throughput) builds, pipe throughput is large relative to the player's current need and so they don't need to think about the resistance model. When building high capacity designs, the resistance forces players to explore a range of different design strategies to address the pipe resistance. The player could very carefully build a series of machines and push capacity to its limit. The player could strategically incorporate pumps and tanks (capacitors) to provide localized buffers. The player could split their factory to perform longer production chains in parallel. I find these trades intuitive and appreciate the puzzles they add to gameplay.

It's true that build-order dependent junctions are not intuitive. But if you really need to control distribution, it is straightforward to accomplish with the circuit network.

Please keep the older, more realistic system. Thank you,

[EndOfHistory]

The reason I never liked the old fluid system was that I could never tell what was going on by looking at it. The belts are highly intuitive. Different speeds, you look at them and you can see what parts of the factory are cannibalising other parts. With fluids... I may just "not get it" but I never got a good intuition for it.

I built a 2.7k science per second mega base with friends and I made the cell that handled oil. It was over-dimensioned and could have handled a base nearly twice its size but I piped and pumped it out and got it to work... by following a wiki about pipe throughputs and pumps needed. Looking at it now I have no idea what's going on. I see the tanks filling and draining and the chem plants and refineries firing on all cylinders but that's it..... as long as all smoke plumes are on intermittently then things are working.

The system needed to change. We must be able to, at a glance, tell how the system is doing. The challenge is then to design a system that does what it is supposed to and the challenge should be there.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the changes, but I'm still confused (as always). I don't want a system where a pipe can have infinite throughput. That's just weird. I don't have any good solutions though. It does feel to me like the chem plants first in line should be able to drain the pipes for others, but how is that visualised to the player?

TLDR: My main problem with the old pipe system is that I couldn't see what was going on.

[ShadowScaleFTL]

And what about using several fluids in same machine? Mods adds a lot of fluid fuels but its impossible to feed them in ssme burners etc bc you can't use one pipe for different fluids. As for me its much more annoying thing about fluids.

[Cehash]

That's the first FFF about the new Factorio that I have just read and thought... hold on... so... you just did that? And this wasn't a build up to a series of trial and errors that eventually came out with something that worked similarly to the old system and was still workable?

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

I'd far prefer the old system, by a LONG way. The quirks are what makes it, not a watered-down perfect, zero-maintenance solution. It's just ripe for exploits that destroy the immersion in the game.

I realise that it's hard work, but the old system needs to be kept if this is the alternative. It adds nothing and takes away a huge aspect of the game, and makes fluids become "just connect this wire and it all works" which removes huge tracts of the fun. Completely destroys barrelling as well - what's the point when you can instantaneously transport all fluids everywhere? I can even see someone make a single long pipeline to a remote station and "schedule" the pipes with circuits to transfer every fluid product into a storage tank, switching using circuits as to what the current fluid is to pump, and what tank it's put into at the end. One pipe, eliminates the entire fluid, barrelling and train transport of fluids in one hit.

I don't "pipe up" (sorry!) often, but no... let's go back to the old way.

This has been a back and forth for a bit... https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-260
Cut the devs some slack, they tried everything they could.

[Sphinx]

I think with all the additional features like the Planets there will be enough new complexity in the addon that the pipe system will be less important.

But I also wonder if you can't take a more hybrid approach.
Like this, for example: The pipe can transport an infinite amount when it's 100% full. But only X amount/second can be pulled out of the pipe segment. So you would still have to set up several parallel systems if you need more liquid than X/sec. And you could incorporate higher stages of pipes, which then have more output/sec.

[doktorstick]

As an engineer and simulation specialist for thermal systems, I am sad about this change. From my point of view, the fluid system, as bad as it may be, was/is the only part of the game that actually deals with engineering tasks. The rest of the game only creates logistical problems. Even if only very few people actually implement just-in-time mechanisms or other real logistical solutions. Most of the people only buffer huge amounts of resources and intermediate products, the opposite of the just-in-time concept. Proportional-integral-controllers are also a rarity used concept. Only produce needed intermediate products is also rarity used concepts.

It makes me all the more sad that this one game mechanic is not being improved or fixed, but simply simplified. I would like to help you to realize a simplified but realistic implementation of the fluid systems.To do this, you can merge longer segments to increase performance. The dynamic pressure can be neglected here. Static pressure, however, offers a simple way of representing reality without becoming too complex. Pumps can also be greatly simplified. But it requires a static pressure at each element input and output. At each tick, the elements could calculate the mass flow independently of other elements. While pumps would only represent a fixed pressure difference.So independent of the pressure level or the pressure difference between input and output.

After the quality feature, which adds non-physically explainable effects to products in an imaginary way, because of the not clearly defined quality, this would be the second step backwards in the direction of the causal game.

I kinda like this approach. In this, would pressure remain constant along merged segments of pipe, or a fixed pressure drop based on the segment length? Would junctions create new segments? (If you had a pipe T, what would happen to the pressures in the two branching pipe runs in your idea?)

Otherwise, if I'm following:

- pumps provide fixed pressure differences to ensure consistent flow;
- output fluids are at set pressures (output source dependent) and stop if the pressure exceeds a threshold to prevent over-pressurization ("Output Full");
- inputs need to observe a minimum pressure to consume the fluid ("Needs Resources"); and
- this would lend different fluids to have different static pressures based on fluid properties (viscosity or density) if they wanted to go that far.

[bnrom]

The only "realism" trade-off is that you don't need additional pumps for "really long" pipes. Well, "really long" pipe is a cornercase which can be processed separately. For example, you could limit the size of the segment, starting from the nearest source of fluid, and when a pipe becomes "too long" just don't use it anymore, and show a warning, so that a player knew what he has to do in order to fix his setup.

If I understand the post correctly putting pumps on the way (or maybe a lot of them only at the end) will still be beneficial to move fluid faster in the case that your pipes are not full?

Not really. In a way, there is no "moving" anymore. Every piping segment becomes basically a tank, distributed over a large territory. The water goes in one end, and immediately appears on the other. Pipes being "not full" won't be an issue, since the only reason why they'll be "not full", is if your consumption is larger than your production, in which case additional pumps won't help, your consumption buildings will starve anyway.

From what I understand, more pumps might help with throughput. However, they can only help If there is a sudden influx of fluid in the system (e.g., a train arriving). The pumps help in this case because they split the pipe entities into multiple segments. Splitting the segments then improve flow rate as the first segment becomes (proportionally) full more quickly (due to having less total capacity), leading to faster flow out of the first segment into the second segment (as outflow is proportional % fullness). It'd be interesting to see whether this actually improves total outflow from the final segment though...

What is clear is that shorter pipe networks will handle sudden influxes better. E.g., a pipe of length 10 will reach a high output a lot faster after a new influx than a pipe of length 1000. I think in general the devs see the fluid system as wanting integration with the train network to cover long distances.

[Maddhawk]

I am really glad to see gameplay taking front seat to realism with fluids finally. I been an advocate for something like this for years now. The fact that fluids weren't getting changed is actually one of the reasons I just quit posting on the forums at all.

The fact that fluid behavior wasn't very realistic to begin with either, was just insult to injury in my opinion. Then you added on that other systems, like the electrical system not being very realistic as well... none of us have to worry about parasitic currents, reactive loads or any of that stuff when it comes to power generation. It also made what should be the best source of power, nuclear, just as problematic as coal fired burners because fluids...

On the flip side of things, I did have some fun working on various designs for pipelines to try and aim for fluid flows as close to 12,000 units over long distances as I could without just stringing pumps back to back, non-stop, the entire distance. So, once 2.0 arrives and I can throw my money at Wube again, I'll have to relegate all those blueprints to the Hall of Fame retired blueprints book.

Ultimately, I am looking forward to this. This will make fluids fun again. For now, I'm building my newest megabase using belted fluids only with barreling and unbarreling.

[gGeorg]

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

Keep in mind that due to the pulling rate being proportional to the segment's fullness, it will take quite a while before the segment has enough of a buffer for your machine at the end to consume the fluid at a reasonable rate. Your production will outpace your consumption until it reaches a steady state.

In case of trains, it works the same, certain buffer is needed to fill up wagons and stations. Difference is, pipes are cheaper to build, easier to maintain and faster to deliver (once system fill up self).

Proposed solution certainly helps Nuclear plants CPU performance weight, but I am not sure that simplified fluid system to the root is expected by tinkerers. Factorio magic is based on feeling that game works like it could really work, magic is in the simulation of reality and perfection of details. Fix fluid by an sledgehammer is unfortunate. Power of computers goes up, number of cores is rising, I would expect improvement the fluid system at the cost of more CPU power. Perhaps next time... .

It looks to me, that this change aims low number of addicts who spend life by stamping still the same blueprint to achieve 10 000, 50 000, whatever _number of science per minute. It is a bit sad, you could complete game with base doing 60 science per minute with ease, while using various tricks which generates the fun (for me) .

If you could use your new "merge_trick" for straight pipes only off max lenght 8 pipes in a row, then improve crossroads and tanks. Basicaly, make a new proposed segment from up to 8 straight pipes. Add some visual feedback, fluid layer - another Altkey vision layer - so player can see what is happening inside (sort of open pipes, to see a belt-like information of flowing items ) so we can keep the fluid puzzle. It would cost CPU time, yes but game would be playful.

[sleepx732]

Please, please, please keep the old code and make this a toggle. Even if it requires a game restart/going into the files to switch. I'll probably play through SA with this first but as a player I often find myself looking for additional challenges on subsequent playthroughs.

[yngndrw]

-1 from me
love the current pipes because they're sexy as fuck, just look at this, you can almost hear it gurgling by

i see the flow animations no longer do their thing in the 2.0 previews and i bet the sound is gone aswell

There's no reason why the correct flow animations can't be shown even with the segmented pipes. Each "port" on a pipe segment still has a flow and direction, so the calculation is still possible. I.e. There's no reason that the segment size for flow calculations needs to match the segment size used for the animation system, for the flow animations each segment can begin or end at any junction.


Regarding the change in general, I like it. During my computer games development degree, one of my tutors (With a lot of industry experience) made the statement "Realism isn't fun". Prior to this, I was like many of those complaining in this thread, but that statement opened my eyes. He was right, it has completely changed my outlook on video games and I still believe that he was absolutely right decades on.

[TheFrizz]

There seems to be a lot of "realism" vs "fun" but it seems like the real concern is the novel puzzles introduced by fluids and how fun they are.

Fluids seemed to introduce three puzzles previously:
1) How do you connect a bunch of ports to assemblers and chem plants in an area already packed with inserters and electric poles and belts using pipes that refuse to not connect with each other.
2) How do you transport fluids long distances? Can you analyze the tradeoff of long-pipe vs fluid wagon vs barrels. Also designing the train stops for fluid loading etc.
3) Can you solve the puzzle of pipe placement order and weird flow and pump placement?

It seems like nearly everyone is in agreement that #3 is a non-goal. Also that weird behaviors deteriorate the fun of puzzle #1.

The teleporting fluids solution seems to completely eliminate puzzle #2. I cannot see the downside of just routing one pipe to every local production block that needs fluid X just like the electrical network. I guess it might create a kind of nuisance while walking you have to aim for the gap between undergrounds. And create a bit of routing problem for your train tracks. I guess I'll have to reserve judgment until I'm actually building the bases.

The good news is that Space Age is adding a bunch of other novel puzzles and so the potential elimination of one puzzle is still a net gain, and I think designing fluid wagon train stops is NOT one of Factorio's most lovable puzzles. I look forward with great anticipation to playing. However this FFF is bittersweet because it does feel a bit like "giving up" which seems a bit off brand. I personally would look forward to a note on the next FFF saying "even though a more complicated fluid system won't make the cut for release. We'll have time to look into improving it again, with potentially another breaking change after Space Age launches".

There's definitely a huge status quo bias and people will dislike any change that isn't elimination of weird junction behavior without sacrificing anything else. But personally I think after playing, people would be ok as long as the new puzzle is fun. For example, it would be a complete 180, but imagine if flow was reduced by X% for every right angle and shared evenly at each junction. Doesn't need to be realistic, it simply needs to create a fun puzzle. The "realistic" element isn't important beyond helping the mechanics of the puzzle feel intuitive. Puzzles that rely on some kind of hidden "gotcha" aren't fun and it's difficult to see the fluid flow so the rules must be understandable more-so than the weird behavior of inserters and belts which are very observable and learnable.

[Potatoman967]

Seems the problem with the old system wasnt that it was quirky or realistic, just that it was unpredictable. If i know what the limits are and they aren't too arbitrary i can compensate for them and work around it, although its a given the order things were placed to determine how the fluids flow was maddening.

The new changes I have mixed feelings on, but seeing the community is a little split on the changes maybe the best solution is for the new system to emulate the old one as best it can. Predictability, performance, with what realism is possible. As it is now it does seem a little easy given how technically in depth the rest of the game can be.

Given the amount of time and length of other blog posts for other perfect solutions i had no qualms with, this decision seems a little hasty in comparison, but at this point im backseat programming so do you what you will.