Friday Facts #416 - Fluids 2.0

[Potipecan]

I think the biggest loss I am seeing is that it may become more efficient to run infinite length pipes than to build fluid transport trains. Not that the old system stopped me in the past so maybe nothing changes.

I think trains will definitely remain a preferred choice, at least until super late game, especially with how simple it is now to ensure uniform fluid loading and unloading, and all the buffs trains are getting. Plopping down a standardized station blueprint will definitely be more convenient and flexible. Not to mention long pipelines will be impossible on Fulgora until we research how to landfill it.
pipes
I suppose you could incorporate a pipeline into your rails network blueprints, but that would mean a lot of unused pipes or extra building time to add them later.

[Shuisman]

For the people whining that the old one was more real: it wasn't, junctions were severely broken, nothing real about them whatsoever. And on large scale fluids were just annoying. I very much welcome the new mechanics!

—Signed by a fluid dynamicist

[raiguard]

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

Keep in mind that due to the pulling rate being proportional to the segment's fullness, it will take quite a while before the segment has enough of a buffer for your machine at the end to consume the fluid at a reasonable rate. Your production will outpace your consumption until it reaches a steady state.

[doktorstick]

Do pumps count as a sink that "drains" the pipe, like the tanks do as described in the FFF? It seems like really long segments will still need to be broken up by pumps (if the above is "yes") to prevent the lower output throughput.

And if pumps aren't a sink and it has to be tanks, then to prevent huge buffers along your lengthy pipeline, you'll want shorter segments separated by a circuit controlled pump connected to a tank (everything < 200 or something) to mitigate buffering.

[Oshida]

I know it might sound stupid

But what if you make the "sections" only 1 pipe long (each pipe is a machine connected to another pipe)

it may bring back the "realism" of pipes filling up one after another but still keep the improvement of the new system ?

[ickputzdirwech]

I would suggest that the “output” of a pipe section (aka what a machine can draw from it) shouldn’t only scale by its fill level but also the number of pipes the section consists of (maybe with a threshold and bigger increments). This would somewhat limit the “throughput” of a pipe system and therefore make them a bit more realistic. It would be an easy way to simulate the pressure drop over long distances and shouldn’t require hardly any extra calculations.

[doktorstick]

But what if you make the "sections" only 1 pipe long (each pipe is a machine connected to another pipe)

it may bring back the "realism" of pipes filling up one after another but still keep the improvement of the new system ?

Haha. I can see a mod that when you place a pipe, it places a "pipe + invisible tank entity of 100 storage units".

[imTheSupremeOne]

I would suggest that the “output” of a pipe section (aka what a machine can draw from it) shouldn’t only scale by its fill level but also the number of pipes the section consists of (maybe with a threshold and bigger increments). This would somewhat limit the “throughput” of a pipe system and therefore make them a bit more realistic. It would be an easy way to simulate the pressure drop over long distances and shouldn’t require hardly any extra calculations.

Yes, please. If it's made like in Thermal Expansion people are going be able to power their whole Seablocks with a single-width slurry pipeline...

[Koub]

By the way, the fluid rework was one of the most requested features, I did a little cleanup in the suggestions subforum :

spoiler

2024-06-21 14_51_50-Clipboard.jpg (108.11 KiB) Viewed 3708 times

[raiguard]

This looks really nice, but I do miss the directional flows in the pipes. This was always such a nice moment when you turn on a chemical/fluid plant and you see all the water and oil rushing in.

Any chance that might be added again?

The fluid flow animation you see in this FFF is a placeholder.

[grzybk]

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

Keep in mind that due to the pulling rate being proportional to the segment's fullness, it will take quite a while before the segment has enough of a buffer for your machine at the end to consume the fluid at a reasonable rate. Your production will outpace your consumption until it reaches a steady state.

So the challenge goes from managing throughput to minimizing startup time yes? Using pumps lets you get startup time shorter by "pressurizing" fluid in base, but any system will eventually work?

[Saiph]

I'm really pumped for this change.

[dustyvilla]

while its hard to say i'm not a little disappointed by how basic this new system is, but i also completely understand and i can't object to the change either, overall i doubt i'd really notice

its a fast and easy solution that overall serves the intended goal of making it simpler and more predictable, and its not like i really have a better idea for how to do an abstract fluid system thats fast and easy to understand

(the only other idea i have would be to take something very similar to this new system but splitting pipes up into multiple segments (either on length or on junctions) and doing a basic calculation for flow between segments, this could preserve the effect when multiple machines are hooked up in a row to a pipe and the fluid is piped in you'd see each one turn on one at a time as the fluid makes it to each segment, but realistically the benefits of a more complex fluid system are minor and i'm not sure its worth working out all the details for doing something more than whats introduced in this FFF)

[WarStalkeR]

Approach is similar to how Captain of Industries handles liquids/gases. Which isn't bad at all. And to make flow look realistic there is always option to add visual only effect.

IMO, we should postpone any implementation of realistic fluid simulations in such massive and complex games as Factorio, until we have actual affordable consumer hardware released that can do these simulation without impacting performance and gameplay.

[MeduSalem]

Yay. Finally my favored idea of how to solve the fluid issues won. ^^

I am totally on board with gameplay/fun outweighing realism.

[DrentalBot]

I'm not sure I'm entirely in love with this solution, but it is clearly better than the previous state. The madness needed to be gone, period.

but it seems like this almost completely trivializes everything about pipes, and I would actually like some logistical challenge about them. I have no idea what that should look like, since adding more belts pipes is a well known, but boring repeat of what belts already do.

Either way, I welcome predictability! It's no fun planning a factory only to see that some weird fluid maths is breaking it instead of things that I can reasonably calculate, like the ideal ratio for machines with non-homogenous modules in them that are not equally beaconed. (calculating for that stuff is fun... Don't judge me, you play Factorio too!)

[ignatio]

I can see where this is coming from, but it's a bit sad when complexity disappear. I actually had fun tinkering with the pipeworks for the high water and steam throughput required in nuclear power plants and that there was a real limitation to distances. When I finally had a setup that worked reliably and near the theoretical maximum it felt like an achievement to be pleased by.

Not the build order dependency though. That was very much not fun to have to take into account.

However if the new system has solved that issue, then in principle it could fix only that by just limiting segments to one pipe unit each, couldn't it?

As a compromise in the interest of UPS performance etc, what about limiting segments to, say, 10 pipe units? That way really long pipes would still suffer as they ought to from a logistics perspective.

[JajajTec]

That's the first FFF about the new Factorio that I have just read and thought... hold on... so... you just did that? And this wasn't a build up to a series of trial and errors that eventually came out with something that worked similarly to the old system and was still workable?

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

I'd far prefer the old system, by a LONG way. The quirks are what makes it, not a watered-down perfect, zero-maintenance solution. It's just ripe for exploits that destroy the immersion in the game.

I realise that it's hard work, but the old system needs to be kept if this is the alternative. It adds nothing and takes away a huge aspect of the game, and makes fluids become "just connect this wire and it all works" which removes huge tracts of the fun. Completely destroys barrelling as well - what's the point when you can instantaneously transport all fluids everywhere? I can even see someone make a single long pipeline to a remote station and "schedule" the pipes with circuits to transfer every fluid product into a storage tank, switching using circuits as to what the current fluid is to pump, and what tank it's put into at the end. One pipe, eliminates the entire fluid, barrelling and train transport of fluids in one hit.

I don't "pipe up" (sorry!) often, but no... let's go back to the old way.

Very agreed. It removes the fun of the fluid system for me. It dont even like it in minecraft, i use diffrent enegy mods because of that.
If possible, maybe make it a option? Although i dont think that something like that is feasable…
Or add 2x2 pipes plz…

[Panzerknacker]

That's the first FFF about the new Factorio that I have just read and thought... hold on... so... you just did that? And this wasn't a build up to a series of trial and errors that eventually came out with something that worked similarly to the old system and was still workable?

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

I'd far prefer the old system, by a LONG way. The quirks are what makes it, not a watered-down perfect, zero-maintenance solution. It's just ripe for exploits that destroy the immersion in the game.

I realise that it's hard work, but the old system needs to be kept if this is the alternative. It adds nothing and takes away a huge aspect of the game, and makes fluids become "just connect this wire and it all works" which removes huge tracts of the fun. Completely destroys barrelling as well - what's the point when you can instantaneously transport all fluids everywhere? I can even see someone make a single long pipeline to a remote station and "schedule" the pipes with circuits to transfer every fluid product into a storage tank, switching using circuits as to what the current fluid is to pump, and what tank it's put into at the end. One pipe, eliminates the entire fluid, barrelling and train transport of fluids in one hit.

I don't "pipe up" (sorry!) often, but no... let's go back to the old way.

Agreed 100%. Bad example of function over form. Fluids was one of those (imperfect) few cases of actual simulation, a nice contrast compared to the binary behaviour of most other processes. Taking this away is a really bad idea. I have already criticized a few previous FFF changes for the expansion that take away from realism but this one kinda flipped the coin for me.

It's a shame, when they restarted the Friday Facts last summer I was extremely hyped by those first few that were written mostly by Kovarex (quality, space platforms, that stuff was amazing) but after that my enthousiasm slowly declined up to the point where right now I am not going to try the expansion any longer unless things start majorly going the other direction again.

[Gemma]

Thank you for being brave enough to refactor!