Friday Facts #414 - Spoils of Agriculture

[Vulteran]

I am concerned about spoilage times restricting how you design your factory. Someone else said people will copy paste an optimized blueprint that minimizes time and I agree with that sentiment.

The primary time component in a factory is transport time, which is largely transport length. This means there will be optimal compact blueprints for handling spoilables.

One thing I would like to see is a way to press pause on the spoiling so you can do large transport distances and then resume. Spoilage to me sounds more interesting as a mechanic when it is about preventing stalls in your production line, and on the steps a given part of your factory performs, keeping it fairly compact.

I am hoping that when they show the next planet, it is an ice planet, and we will be able to build cryo-barrels / cryo-crates to press pause on the spoilage timer so we can do things like ship an intermediate product off world or take it on a train ride and not need to worry about the mechanic until you unbox it again.

This would give you more freedom to design your factory how you want, with the safety that you know you can add some extra logistics steps to your bio products to smooth over factory hiccups / long transport distances.

As the design stands right now, I am guessing when we get to this planet, everyone is just going to migrate their science labs to Gleba / in orbit of Gleba to minimize spoilage times, which sounds tedious and boring to see that design repeat itself across everyone's games because it's the best way to solve the problem.

[Necronium]

Hi,

I don't like to have a mass production which results only building more and more big buffers.
The spoilage enforces you to have more just-in-time production lines, to scale complete procuction lines and to tune the logistics. Excellent - just my opinion.

I don't have big buffers, I scale as best as possible, with ratio and logical. I don't "speed run", instead "slow run", with optimize. And i dislike game with spoilage exactly because i like adjust production.

Spoilage will require speedy and avoid optimizing
Certainly not the opposite.

But how does "white-line" works for stacks one the belt? see https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-393

Yes, I wondered what about stacks on the belt, the FFF414 doesn't talk about it.
I hope this stacks on the belt will not be abandoned.

You are joking right? Right?

It seems like you dont have idea whats optimisation really is cause spoilage is built in check system to see how well optimised that part of base is

[GregoriusT]

Knowing how some random Minecraft Mod is handling spoilage, it is quite simple to do it with great performance.

It will just put a timestamp of the exact moment it has been created, and then calculates spoilage only when necessary for display purposes. Another option is using the timestamp of exactly when it is going to spoil, so that if that timestamp is passed while on a belt or anywhere it will spoil, and not require any calculations unless it renders the spoilage bar on screen.

The hypothetical Freezer (likely not gonna happen) will just postpone that timestamp by like 1 second every 2 seconds or so.

[bnrom]

I am concerned about spoilage times restricting how you design your factory. Someone else said people will copy paste an optimized blueprint that minimizes time and I agree with that sentiment.

I don't understand this sentiment! Spoilage is designed to restrict factory design on Gleba, and to incentivize optimizing a new aspect of production (item travel times). Why play Factorio if you don't want to solve these kinds of design challenges..? Spoilage creates one more interesting thing to optimize for.

To be clear, as I understand it, all the spoil-able items are renewable. All these items being renewable means that having an un-optimized Gleba factory is extremely similar to having an un-optimized vanilla factory: there is no concern over permanent loss, and you just aren't achieving optimal output for your investment of infrastructure (machines, resource harvesters, belts, etc...).

Further, just as in Vanilla, none of the gameplay requires any spreadsheets or even ratios. You can just create your own eyeballed slightly-un-optimal setups... and then design and improve them overtime...

[Knuth]

I don't understand this sentiment! Spoilage is designed to restrict factory design on Gleba, and to incentivize optimizing a new aspect of production (item travel times). Why play Factorio if you don't want to solve these kinds of design challenges..? Spoilage creates one more interesting thing to optimize for.

To be clear, as I understand it, all the spoil-able items are renewable. All these items being renewable means that having an un-optimized Gleba factory is extremely similar to having an un-optimized vanilla factory: there is no concern over permanent loss, and you just aren't achieving optimal output for your investment of infrastructure (machines, resource harvesters, belts, etc...).

Further, just as in Vanilla, none of the gameplay requires any spreadsheets or even ratios. You can just create your own eyeballed slightly-un-optimal setups... and then design and improve them overtime...

I can't seem to understand how spoilage improve optimizing. Optimizing need predict what will happen, maybe with some probability.
With spoilage, we can try to predict using stats and probability, but only with big factorys design.
Actually with spoilage, we'll go increase the production of the items and all of production line with a production margin. And then we burn the spoiled and surplus.
For me this is the opposite to optimize.

There are also the logical control. But how use it. First, you need logic give stat of spoilage (no info on this).
And after, once the logical system "says" : "some items turn spoiled" what to do ? Power on production upstream ? Wow, wonderful and funny new optimization mechanic...
Maybe enable something in downstream, but i can't see the possible use of this.

No, with the deterioration, it will be like other games, at the beginning of the game it will be difficult for a beginner, and afterward an advanced player will have a solution to not think about it.
And the main solutions will be “produce noticeably more than needed”.
That's not my definition of optimization...

[GregoriusT]

I do not think Power Production from Spoilage is gonna be worth literally anything, did you see the amount of spoiled garbage that stack inserter dumped into the Boiler in that one animation? That is at most an eighth of whatever wood is burning for.

[mmmPI]

I can't seem to understand how spoilage improve optimizing.

And the main solutions will be “produce noticeably more than needed”.
That's not my definition of optimization...

There you go :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing

If you think "advanced player" will "produce noticeably more than needed", that's not my definition of "advanced player"

You need to produce not only the proper quantity, but also at the proper time, no more stockpiling tons of things or they go to waste, you need to optimize indeed.

[FuryoftheStars]

I can't seem to understand how spoilage improve optimizing. Optimizing need predict what will happen, maybe with some probability.

Actually, it doesn't. You can build unoptimized, then rebuild/tweak as you watch it in action.

[Tricorius]

I think this is only presenting the challenge. I fully expect to get more information about tools used to solve this challenge over time.

One aspect of that is quality. Even if quality doesn't DIRECTLY impact spoilable items it WILL impact delivery times. Maybe you need high quality trains and platform engines to get your most precious cargo to your science facility as quickly as possible. Maybe there are enhancements to quality we haven't been informed of yet.

Maybe quality modules in the components building these intermediates and science packs increase the quality of the exported items, thus giving higher base times.

And that is just one of the subsystems included in 2.0.

[Knuth]

If you think "advanced player" will "produce noticeably more than needed", that's not my definition of "advanced player"

You need to produce not only the proper quantity, but also at the proper time, no more stockpiling tons of things or they go to waste, you need to optimize indeed.

Of course, players using max optimization will continue optimization!
And, player without optimization or with "middle optimization" will continue light optimization. This mean what i said.

But a the end, you'll just increase production upstream.

The only change, is "buffering" it will be more difficult to do.
There will be system to "sort" the spoilable items.
There will be frustration for beginner.

[mmmPI]

Of course, players using max optimization will continue optimization!
And, player without optimization or with "middle optimization" will continue light optimization. This mean what i said.

But a the end, you'll just increase production upstream.

The only change, is "buffering" it will be more difficult to do.
There will be system to "sort" the spoilable items.
There will be frustration for beginner.

Spoilage mechanism leads to the need for another kind of optimization, not sure we agree on that.

No I will not just increase production upstream, maybe you will, that seem like what a beginner would do to me ...

"buffering" is not "more difficult" to do, it's something you need to "stop doing" on this planet imo ....

You DO NOT NEED to produce more, if you can avoid waste by properly using circuits to only produce when you need, the amount of things you need.

I think "advanced players" will make system that do not produce waste, like 0 if the game allows for it.

[Ranakastrasz]

Judging by the basically useless circuit designs to avoid wasting nuclear fuel cells, given how cheap they honest are, especially once the hilarious op koverix process is unlocked, advanced players will find a solution, and it will probably be about as pointless, when accepting some amount of waste is good enough.

My concern is that if the bio science packs decay, you have to ship all science to the bio planet, because anywhere else will cause significant penalties for those science packs.

Though if science can't run on the bio planet at all, the thought of designing a high speed ship/platform thing to minimize decay might be interesting.

Also what if an item decays while an inserter is trying to stick it in a machine, especially if the inserter gets stuck waiting for space to insert? When I drop extra coal or w.e. in furnaces in times before robots, it sometimes breaks the inserters who can't fit coal in if it was trying to insert just as I dropped a full stack in. This also happens with stack inserters iirc.

[Blitz4]

I am concerned about spoilage times restricting how you design your factory. Someone else said people will copy paste an optimized blueprint that minimizes time and I agree with that sentiment.

The primary time component in a factory is transport time, which is largely transport length. This means there will be optimal compact blueprints for handling spoilables.

One thing I would like to see is a way to press pause on the spoiling so you can do large transport distances and then resume. Spoilage to me sounds more interesting as a mechanic when it is about preventing stalls in your production line, and on the steps a given part of your factory performs, keeping it fairly compact.

I am hoping that when they show the next planet, it is an ice planet, and we will be able to build cryo-barrels / cryo-crates to press pause on the spoilage timer so we can do things like ship an intermediate product off world or take it on a train ride and not need to worry about the mechanic until you unbox it again.

This would give you more freedom to design your factory how you want, with the safety that you know you can add some extra logistics steps to your bio products to smooth over factory hiccups / long transport distances.

As the design stands right now, I am guessing when we get to this planet, everyone is just going to migrate their science labs to Gleba / in orbit of Gleba to minimize spoilage times, which sounds tedious and boring to see that design repeat itself across everyone's games because it's the best way to solve the problem.

There's optimal blueprints for many existing things in Factorio

Ice Planet, Lava Planet, Toxic Planet, Radioactive Planet
Bring It

The DLC should feel like a new game, think how long it's been. 4 years just since 1.0, that's as much time as it takes to create many new big budget games

[Anima117]

Hi,

Not a big fan of the idea of spoilage paired with the whole "send it back home" idea, but then again my guess is that provided a reccurent enough supply of rockets, it will eventually stop being an actual problem so long as you clear any bottlenecks and keep short production lines. It is at least interesting to think about factory designs that would fit the bill when time is of the essence.

I'm happy to read each FFF to see interesting news. But today, i'm disappointed
I think spoilage is really a bad idea (I hate this in the games).

I read some posts speak about freezer.. Hum, may be, but with at least 1000x up of duration
Better to disable this. I don't even want to try.

Sadly, the FFF states that the spoilage process can't be delayed. So unless they got plans to add that due to people not liking the idea, I doubt there will be a freezing mechanic. But I don't mind the idea of having to make a factory that automatically sorts out spoilage, and has items spoiling quickly. It forces you to manage the production, and transformation of your ressources quickly, and creates an interesting idea for planning the factory. I'm really just not a fan of sending the bioscience packs to other planets for specific recipes. Then again it is probably the item that will have the longest shelf life since you can't really be expected to just have a stockpile of the stuff that might rot in transport.

[Anima117]

However, what I do wonder is, what will Gleba bring to the table. By that I mean, asside from progress towards finishing the expansion, what does it bring for the rest of the game once you're done with it?

The FFF mentioned there's going to be carbon fiber, maybe that will be useful for something.

I mean more in terms of permanent benefits. What I consider a permanent benefit is for example, Vulcanus' infinite supply of stone, iron ore and copper ore. The utility of that is that if you were to run out of iron, copper, or stone on Nauvis, and somehow couldn't get to a nearby patch right now, you could use Vulcanus as a permanent supply of the stuff.
Same for Fulgora having an infinite source of oil. Oil is already technically infinite in Factorio, but not at a steady rate. While I presume Fulgora's supply wont be "as good" as the supply on Nauvis (as in, transport logistics from planet to planet is gonna be painful), but you could theorically use it to supply Nauvis.

And you could also supply to other planets. Imagine Gleba has no iron, copper, and stone deposits. I don't think they'd do that because I'm fairly certain they intend for you to not get softlocked should something bad happen on a planet and you probably can't transport ressources until you reach rockets again, but imagine they did something like that. But already Vulcanus to Fulgora basic ressource transportation is a good idea given Fulgora works by recyling trash. Having a space platform do trips from Vulcanus to Fulgora with infinite ressources would eventually solve most of Fulgora's problems so you can keep farming the rest of the stuff in peace.

Anyway, my point remains, asside from expanding your ressources, I do wonder if Gleba will bring something else than just the bioflux and carbon fiber (Which are going to be this planet's main export, just like Vulcanus gets Tungsten, and Fulgora gets Holmium) in the same sense that the other two planets get a bonus addition of a ressource being farmable to infinity.

[Tricorius]

Anyway, my point remains, asside from expanding your ressources, I do wonder if Gleba will bring something else than just the bioflux and carbon fiber (Which are going to be this planet's main export, just like Vulcanus gets Tungsten, and Fulgora gets Holmium) in the same sense that the other two planets get a bonus addition of a ressource being farmable to infinity.

There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets, so on top of optimizing the production chain, it'll also be meaningful to make a fast space platform to deliver them.

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.

Personally, I hope its the spoilage mechanic itself that is the exportable technology.

It would be interesting if you have to export spoiler catalysts (BioFlux TM?) and purposefully inject spoilage mechanics into materials that are native to other planets in order to destabilize them (or whatever) into entirely new compounds needed for advanced recipes.

[Anima117]

Anyway, my point remains, asside from expanding your ressources, I do wonder if Gleba will bring something else than just the bioflux and carbon fiber (Which are going to be this planet's main export, just like Vulcanus gets Tungsten, and Fulgora gets Holmium) in the same sense that the other two planets get a bonus addition of a ressource being farmable to infinity.

There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets, so on top of optimizing the production chain, it'll also be meaningful to make a fast space platform to deliver them.

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.

Personally, I hope its the spoilage mechanic itself that is the exportable technology.

It would be interesting if you have to export spoiler catalysts (BioFlux TM?) and purposefully inject spoilage mechanics into materials that are native to other planets in order to destabilize them (or whatever) into entirely new compounds needed for advanced recipes.

My guess is the three things we'll get to export are mainly the bioscience packs (unless you'd do the research on Gleba directly I guess, or took all science packs to Gleba eventually, but logistically speaking, it makes more sense to send back one science pack platform from Gleba to Nauvis, than send red, green, blue, black, purple, and yellow science packs from Nauvis to Gleba. And the carbon fiber.

The other thing, if it isn't giving an item some form of spoilage, I would guess more that the mysterious bioflux reacts differently depending on the atmosphere it is in, and thus can be crafted into different recipes. Lets imagine for a second that the bioflux is green on Gleba, but changes color depending on the planet it is on due to simply what is in the atmosphere of each planet, forcing you to send the bioflux from Gleba to each planet, rather than send the products from each planet to Gleba which would otherwise be more efficient due to the spoilage.

Either way like I said before, I don't like the idea of sending spoilables to different planets per say, but it really depends on the actual time it takes for platforms to go from point A to point B vs how fast spoilage happens for items. Obviously some items aren't meant to leave Gleba to begin with. But to see how "bad" it actually is, we'd need to know how fast platforms can make the trip (And how fast you can build rockets too). The rest is just how fast you process the stuff in your factory. and shouldn't be a problem in term of throughoutput on factories themselves. I'm not against the idea, I just got some apprehensions on it

[Anima117]

How is this concept functional together with quality? I'm not sure if it is a good idea to have items with different quality and changing durability at the same time. In my opinion it is overcomplicated.

Considering quality isn't mentioned in the post, I am guessing that all spoilable items have no quality maybe? With whatever non-spoilable item they create being be the ones that roll for quality- It will be fine in that case don't worry.

I do hope they change the names of both systems though, like maybe 'decay' and 'purity', especially if they want to reuse these systems in the future (plus for mod creators too)

On that note, maybe the higher the freshness of the items used into the final product, the higher chance at a high quality the final product has, to counter balance the fact it will probably not be great for recycler running if you really wanted the highest quality.

[Niyu.Cuatro]

Another important thing on this whole spoilage "debate" and how it relates to optimizing. What Spoilage do is not remove optimizing, what it does is change the optimization target. In vanilla, you usually optimize for troughput. With spoilage you optimize for travel time, wich means you might wan't less troughput if that allows for a shorter travel time.

Also, as they said, " different items have different spoil times, ranging from about 2 hours to mere minutes" wich means fast processing won't be equally crucial in all steps. And i bet Science packs will have the longer spoilage time. Giving plenty of time for you to send it to wherever you are researching. Also, they probably will be made and sent from mostly 100% renewable materials. So even if some of your sicence packs end up rotting in your labs when not using them, as long as you set up waste treatment (wich seems really easy with the recyclers) you won't have any major trouble.

[Anima117]

Tiny feedback: the icon for the planet in the friday facts is missing the science pack, unlike the friday facts on the Vulcanus and Fulgora mechanics.

images

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Quick, nobody tell him this isn't the planet, but a big pile of rot!