Friday Facts #393 - Putting things on top of other things

[Dixi]

Do I got it right, that we'll get only stacking on belts, and number of belts stays the same? I.e. no faster then blue belt will appear?

If it's so, I like it. I used Ultimate belts mod once, just to add 1 or 2 tier of belts, when I missed throughput in some modded game, probably in IR*. But I was not satisfied with graphics - new belts appear to fast, and have different visual glitches.

I love an idea of stacking items a lot, since several other factory games use it, and it works well.

About new special inserter for stacking items. I doubt that it's the best implementation. Unlocking ability of stacking (+1, +2, +3 just in a tech tree) for normal inserters will be better. To avoid excessive amount of different inserters.
After being researched stacking should be on by default. To disable stacking, after it is researched, just mark "Override stack size" checkbox. This will turn inserter to non stacking.

About filter inserters. I think they are used on very rare occasions. In many factories, they almost never used at all, since spitters gain ability to filter items.

[Qon]

I dunno, gonna be honest this is the first one that's had me kinda worried. Now a 2 wagon train can outperform 8 wagon trains.

Wrong.
"Stacks of items" on belts are not their own items, like in mods. They are the same items as before. You can't insert belt stacks into trains, making "stacks of stacks". Instead the regular items will be inserted into cargo wagons like now, no change in cargo wagon capacity.
Basically, belt slots aren't limited to stack size 1 any more. In mods similar visual effects have been achieved by making "compressed items", but this is not that.

[Qon]

Do I got it right, that we'll get only stacking on belts, and number of belts stays the same? I.e. no faster then blue belt will appear?

Wrong. Read the FFF again.

[half a cat]

How does quality interact with stacking and filtering? Can a belt splitter split stacks by quality? Are inserters dexterous enough to pick one high-quality item from the bottom of a stack like that trick where you remove a tablecloth without disturbing the plates?

[DanGio]

Ah, once again, 2 epilepsy points.

I'm actually epileptic I find annoying to see people making their point using this condition. Can't you just say "I dislike it" ?

The animation showed today won't trigger anything. If Wube released some real epilepsy triggering graphics and ignored players warning them it would be very upsetting, so please don't sound false alarms.

[warlordship]

You might be confusing two separate but similarly-named topics. Stack size for Low-Density Structures only comes into play when stored in chests. A "stack" on a belt can only be - at maximum level - 4. So a Bulk Inserter will pick up 16 LDS items from a chest in 4 stacks of 4. It will place them onto a belt in stacks of 4. It makes sense to me that an inserter can theoretically hold more items in its hands than a single CHEST stack size.

This was largely explained on Reddit by Klonan. It's unclear whether the stack limits apply to the bulk inserter itself. Scratch that, they are.

I guess I figured that stack-size-1 items like armor and shells wouldn't likely be able to be stacked to 4 (though I see no reason why they can't stack). I guess what I'm getting at here is that since belt stacks go up to 4, you must find items that stack less than that in a chest to find one that might not work properly in a "Bulk Inserter". Current Stack Inserters can - I assume - hold more than 10 Structures at a time, since it is holding ~14 single items of each, despite a boxed-stack of 10. Similarly, Bulk Inserters are holding 16 items, but only lets items down in stacks of 4 on belts.

*Edit* Now that I think about it, I seem to recall that maybe stack inserters did have the limitation of only moving 10 structures at a time, despite having a "stack size" of 14. So this is indeed an issue I hadn't thought of. My Mistake.

[Dixi]

Ah, once again, 2 epilepsy points.

I'm actually epileptic I find annoying to see people making their point using this condition. Can't you just say "I dislike it" ?

I also vote against new faster belt introduction in base game. I think none tricks will make it looks much better. And currently it looks too fast, visually unpleasant. Stacking 4 times should be enough to increase throughput.

Making underground path for a belt longer can be done by tech tree for existing belts, right? When we research amount of items, inserter start to pickup more items at once. Same way we can get ability to place underground belt exit on a greater distance.
I expect argument "if you do not like it, you may not use it". But the game usually balanced, taking in mind all possible technologies.

[DucaDiMonteSberna]

Will the smart inserter upgrade (so, the new filters for all inserters) be available at start or it has to be unlocked with a new tech?

[Neutronium]

Regarding the comments on epilepsy, the game shouldn't be restricted/limited for a minority of players. The new fast belts are a nice addition. Don't use the new belts if you feel like they'll trigger something, or use mods to make whatever changes you want.

[Dixi]

Will the smart inserter upgrade (so, the new filters for all inserters) be available at start or it has to be unlocked with a new tech?

I do not think that it will be available at start. It will be either at Fast Inserter, like in current game, or with a new tech.

I think, like it was correctly mentioned earlier, some items, should not be stackable. For sample: armor, artillery shells, all end products.

[picklock]

I want the new faster belt also in the base game and not only in the expansion.

[Svip]

Will the smart inserter upgrade (so, the new filters for all inserters) be available at start or it has to be unlocked with a new tech?

I do not think that it will be available at start. It will be either at Fast Inserter, like in current game, or with a new tech.

Basic splitters have filters from the get-go, no reason to assume it won't be the same for inserters.

[Gene]

So if you're adding 5 filter slots to inserters by default, how about boosting the filter slots on splitters to 5? It's been a pet peeve for a long time that I can only filter one item on a splitter rather than a group - it means I have to chain splitters and burn a lot of space.

[GregoriusT]

I just noticed the most important thing that is very relevant to this! All the Forum Ranks need to be updated once 2.0 is out, since they are Inserter based XD

[Serenity]

Wasn't is always said that Quality is optional? But now the game is balanced around it and assumes you will have a lot of production that needs much higher belt throughput. I know there are other things like the new miners, but it seems like it's just assumed that you use Quality items when available.

[GregoriusT]

Wasn't is always said that Quality is optional? But now the game is balanced around it and assumes you will have a lot of production that needs much higher belt throughput. I know there are other things like the new miners, but it seems like it's just assumed that you use Quality items when available.

Yeah it is optional, as in you can still play like before with the same strategies as current vanilla. Though once Quality is in play, you will have to overproduce in order to get quality items in sufficient quantities, which means you need higher throughput. Not to mention those new Big Drills needed to stack Items just so you can use them without being forced to use direct to train insertion.

[robot256]

I agree with a lot of the comments that have been made so far.

• Giving filters to all inserters is a major improvement.
• Having "stack inserters" that can't stack, and "bulk inserters" that are only slightly faster but add belt stacking, seems redundant even if the names are swapped. Why not give belt stacking to stack inserters, and expand the inserter capacity bonus research for all inserters? That might also solve concerns about long inserter speed without needing the arm swinging to break the sound barrier.
• Concerned about the lack of information regarding stacking and loaders.
• The faster belts seem redundant given the belt stacking, but I suppose this depends on how the tech tree is laid out. But in any case, 30 items per second per lane is a terrible choice for a 60FPS game. For it to be worth using, they need to be faster. Space Exploration Deep Space Belts run at 2x the speed of Express Belts, and the graphics are silly but not disconcerting. At that speed, most builds do need to transition items to slower belts before inserters can pick up off them.
• If the belts are super fast, they could even be conceived as covered pneumatic tubes so the graphics and inserter issues are less jarring.

[TheTomCZ]

I want to play this YESTERDAY!

Btw, agree that Stack Inserter vs Bulk Inserter mixup will occur, seems kinda weird

[Dmytrozern]

Almost 2k hours here, and don't remember using blue belts because of their price. Space is unlimited after all, so I'm not sure I'm gonna use new belts apart from underground. I like the color - not too vibrant and even tho it's similar to yellow, you still can easily say what belt it is by looking at its speed.

Stacking is a nice addition. However, as was said earlier, will it make trains almost obsolete? I would love to at least see the distance between patches and their relation to bug nests rebalanced. Basically, expanding ore and smoothing the nests' placement curve to make more use of trains. Some higher wagon capacity would be nice, too.

Overall, I'm not sure how I feel. The changes make logistical challenges easier - just think of filters in long inserters. I just hope the game will not be trivialized to a simple grind of put "put this thing here, and you are golden. When you have new resources - update the thing to a faster one". I have been afraid of it ever since I created a super-compact assemblers layout with 3 inputs and 1 output, and I realized it fits 90% of recipes in the game. I loved the new "assemblers" that are a bit bigger - brings more variety. I wonder if we get more special buildings instead of usual several tiers of "one assembler to craft them all".

[SnowZyDe]

I dunno, gonna be honest this is the first one that's had me kinda worried. Now a 2 wagon train can outperform 8 wagon trains. This feels like a very big move towards scale up rather than scale out, and scaling out has always been where Factorio's emergent complexity, the part that makes the game so compelling and interesting, shines.

I guess we'll see when it's all put together. That new inserters looks more promising and interesting than a 4th tier belt tho. That animation looks _bad_ even with the shading. The new inserter is 75% of the total new belt capacity. Maybe just have that and not the weird looking belt?

You're wrong. 2 wagons of resources = 2 wagons of resources