Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

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SteelWolf300
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by SteelWolf300 »

Hi devs, this new contentent looks great! Here are some ideas of features you could add (I just realized there are some repeat with previous comments, but I tried to make it as visual as possible).

The ability to specify between red and green wire would be the perfect opportunity to add new features for "array" pointwise operations. By array I mean wire.


As a simple example, filtering on signals (both whitelist and blacklist) can be achieved with 6 combinators and 2 ticks of delay (see technicalfactorio).
This single combinator would do the job. Devs did not specify how the Image everything / Image anything / Image each signals would work with the new combinators, but I suppose that the depicted single combinator will do the job for a whitelist filtering.
decider-each.png
decider-each.png (52.42 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
For a blacklist, use "=" instead of "≠", but this one is more tricky, because Image each = 0 might select no signal, depending on how devs implement it.


Arithmetic pointwise operations is a big one. For instance, pointwise multiplication can be currently achieved with 5 combinators, 2 ticks delays and with potential overflow (see technicalfactorio).
If implementing the possibility to have the signal Image each several time as input in the right way (alongside having the possibility to select between red and green wires for arithmetic combinators), it would be possible to do this in one single arithmetic combinator.
arithmetic-pointwise-each.png
arithmetic-pointwise-each.png (21.58 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
Not only would this simplify pointwise multiplication, but it would also give us access to all other operators (division, modulo...), which are almost impossible to get currently.
There would also be a use-case for several Image each as input of decider combinators: pointwise maximum of red and green signals (and similarly minimum) could be achieved with two decider combinators in parallel and 1 tick of computation only (with pseudocode but hopefully that makes sense):

Code: Select all

(RED, GREEN) -> RED.each ≥ GREEN.each then RED.each -> OUTPUT
(RED, GREEN) -> RED.each < GREEN.each then GREEN.each -> OUTPUT

Since I am talking about using several special signals as input, one feature that I felt was missing in Factorio was to have both Image anything and Image everything as input when selecting a signal (output is Image anything). For instance, the following would choose one of the signals of max value:
decider-anything-max.png
decider-anything-max.png (10.86 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
Anyway, it seems that the selection feature (Image anything as output) would be somewhat rendered obsolete by the new selector combinator. For sake of simplicity, the selection feature could be removed from the decider combinator, although this means that what could be achieved in one single decider combinator in 1 tick might now require a decider AND a selector combinator, and 2 ticks of computation. Simplicity and modularity vs backward compatibility and speed :roll:


I'm jumping on the opportunity to present some of my contraptions. This is a system of combinators that allows to translate number of items to number of stacks and vice versa. I intended to use it for my Space Exploration run, for smart interplanetary transfer (what a coincidence). The core idea is to do a pointwise operation (usually multiplication or division) between a wire A that is supposed constant, and wire B that changes (but not too fast). You might see how this mess complex contraption could be replaced with a few combinators, using pointwise operators as mentionned previously, and the stack size feature of the selector combinator.
from left to right:
  • wire A content (a bunch of constant combinators that contain each item in the game and their stack size). I used a lua command and python script to generate that.
  • an iterator over wire A signals, grouped by value (i.e., stack size). the signal "S" takes the value of each distinct values. It's quite big but you need only one for the whole map, and I tried to minimize the iteration time (3 ticks per distinct value, plus 3 ticks to reset). In vanilla, it would do a cycle roughly every half second, but modded content can introduce custom stack sizes so it would take longer.
  • item to stack converter (pointwise B/A). Here, B is the content of the chest. I also made versions of this that perform rounded up division and so on.
  • stack to item converter (pointwise B*A). Here, B is the output of the previous contraption.
stack-computation.png
stack-computation.png (699.88 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
stack-computation-alt.png
stack-computation-alt.png (955.61 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
Last edited by SteelWolf300 on Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by XANi »

Can we get graphing (just draws input signals in same way production stats are drawn) combiners in addition to that ?

Would make debugging any circuit issues much easier (and graphs for nerds are great too) and last time I've checked the one mod that tried it (using some surface hacks) got broken after some release.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Solinya »

Zomis wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:18 am Something that is currently very difficult, and requires O(log n) time, is to take the maximum or minimum value from a circuit. So that would be a great fit for the selector. "Select maximum value(s)" + "Select minimum value(s)"

Average value is currently easy to do with combinators, but max/min is ridiculously complicated.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is doable with the top option on the new selector combinator. Plop down two selectors connected to the same input wire, set one to select input index 0 sorted ascending for your minimum, set the other to select input index 0 sorted descending for your maximum.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Saphira123456 »

Tricorius wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:55 pm
Saphira123456 wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:48 pm Robotics and the signal network are, at least to me, the most difficult and cumbersome parts of the game to learn and use, since there's no tutorials or any other way to do so. They are also pretty much useless, there's literally no need to use them to complete the game in 1.1. I don't see why they were even included in the base game, in the first place.
Just because YOU don’t use them doesn’t mean they are useless. Technically most aspects of the game are useless according to your definition. You could technically manually mine and feed every ore and intermediate into assemblers and just build fluids. But why would you?

The circuit network and robots are Quality of Life features. Some of us like to build large and as you build larger these things are indispensable.

Personally, I rush robots in any new game because they are so useful by doing tedious things for me while I focus on other things. Even up to my very first rocket launch they are insanely useful. And I have some standard blueprints (such as outposting) that use circuits.

🤷‍♂️
I disagree. Robots are not quality of life any more than belts or furnaces or pipes.

Robots are the opposite of quality of life. I too like to build large yet I still plop down everything manually, miners, belts, splitters, the whole nine yards. Robots are anti-quality-of-life.

I spend more time in game waiting for science packs to be done than anything else, especially when waiting for Blue science packs to be done, so having robots do all the work for me would turn Factorio into an idle game. If I wanted that, I could just go to the main menu and watch the simulations and not even enter the game myself, ever.

Taking the tedious out of the game would result in there being no more game.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Roxor128 »

Could we get a memory combinator as well?

Sure, you can build memory cells out of the existing ones, but it's a bit of a pain, especially if you're trying to protect it against signal contamination (I have had many bugs due to accidentally getting an extra signal into my memory cells that added with one of the ones in use and took one the internal ones above 1).

I'd suggest giving it three modes

SR latch (output is strictly 0 or 1, inputs only care about zero or non-zero)
D-latch (still single-bit like the SR latch)
Register (will store and read an arbitrary signal value, control lines are binary zero/non-zero)

Maybe make it 2*2 in size. Somehow that seems about right for the job.

Also, how about a signal mode for the power switch, so it can be used to disconnect signal lines instead of power? Would be really helpful for debugging signal networks if you could easily isolate a section with a switch from the map and see if that problematic signal is still showing up on the line without having to drive around and disconnect wires by hand. I speak from bitter experience in Nullius on that point.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by protocol_1903 »

I think it would be nice for setting which color wires are inputs and outputs for inserters. So red wire sets filters or enables/disables, while green wire is where read hand contents goes. Same for belts.

Another idea: allow circuit signals to enable/disable splitters, set filters (but not which side is the filtered output) and read contents. Alternatively, have both sides of the splitter have different inputs and outputs for more control. I would also like to see similar controls on underground belts, if possible.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by protocol_1903 »

Roxor128 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:09 am Also, how about a signal mode for the power switch, so it can be used to disconnect signal lines instead of power? Would be really helpful for debugging signal networks if you could easily isolate a section with a switch from the map and see if that problematic signal is still showing up on the line without having to drive around and disconnect wires by hand. I speak from bitter experience in Nullius on that point.
This. It would be so nice to separate signals without the need for other logic. Possibly make them one way switches, so that control logic, power, and circuit signals come from one side and flow to the other side. Not sure how that one way power would work though, so maybe not that.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by brokentwig »

First, I am so looking forward to Factorio 2.0 and the Expansion. Hundreds of hours of fun awaits.

This might not be the proper place to discuss the 2 colors of wires, as there might be a great reason why there is 2, but it was a major source of confusion for me when learning circuits (I'm still not very advanced). I read pretty much everything on the wiki when starting out, and then watched a bunch of youtube videos, but I still don't really understand. My mind just wanted there to be channels that I could select, like ports on a computer, with everything running on one color wire. Instead I have 2 wire colors, and can't select the channel, although there are channels in some capacity for some reason.

For instance, maybe I want to add some pumps to some of the chemicals or liquids based on tank levels. And maybe, I want to get a little advanced and monitor a few tanks with the same chemical in them, but do different things based on the levels of each tank. I think it would be so much easier to just broadcast each tank level on a different channel (maybe with a custom name) and then choose which channel I want to read on the decision making items (combinators/switches/etc). Maybe one of you can clear up why the 2 colors makes more sense.

Also, I think it would be very nice if the wires always connected to a little "pole" on the devices. There have been many times when wiring stuff up that I can't see exactly where the wire is attached, and as you have to click both items to remove the wire, I just end up adding more wires because I'm not clicking on the correct spot. Adding a little pole that stuck up from each device would make it easy to see where the wire was attached.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Xorimuth »

Saphira123456 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:24 am
I spend more time in game waiting for science packs to be done than anything else, especially when waiting for Blue science packs to be done, so having robots do all the work for me would turn Factorio into an idle game. If I wanted that, I could just go to the main menu and watch the simulations and not even enter the game myself, ever.
What SPM do you tend to build at this stage of the game? Why not increase it? (Using bots to make increasing it easier…)
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Saphira123456 »

Xorimuth wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:36 am
Saphira123456 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:24 am
I spend more time in game waiting for science packs to be done than anything else, especially when waiting for Blue science packs to be done, so having robots do all the work for me would turn Factorio into an idle game. If I wanted that, I could just go to the main menu and watch the simulations and not even enter the game myself, ever.
What SPM do you tend to build at this stage of the game? Why not increase it? (Using bots to make increasing it easier…)
I already have a difficult time making one assembling machine's worth of blue science, how is it beneficial to make it more difficult by duplicating the line? It's not like it's going to make it any easier to catch up.

I often have to spend many hours just letting the game run idle as it is, oftentimes overnight, eight hours straight of the game running. Robots would only increase the amount of time I spend not playing the game, instead waiting around for more science packs.

------------------------------------------------------------------
When you can do everything in two steps, click-click-boom, then there's no real reason to not go click-click-boom every time. So by adding robots, congratulations: You just reduced the entire game of Factorio to two clicks and then a whole lot of what is essentially watching paint dry. How fun. /s
------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, if I wanted robots I'd watch the simulations on the main menu. It'd be just as much gameplay as what you are proposing, maybe a little less because you literally don't have to do anything to watch the simulations except sit on the main menu.

If this game didn't have tedious, boring, repetitive tasks there would be no game, just a wait. I often find myself watching YouTube or Netflix or even television while I wait for science packs to be produced and labs to do their thing with said science packs as it is, and adding robots would make this even worse.

Starting right around blue science, Factorio becomes an idle game, little more than an interactive screensaver.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Tricorius »

Saphira123456 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:24 am I disagree. Robots are not quality of life any more than belts or furnaces or pipes.

Robots are the opposite of quality of life. I too like to build large yet I still plop down everything manually, miners, belts, splitters, the whole nine yards. Robots are anti-quality-of-life.

I spend more time in game waiting for science packs to be done than anything else, especially when waiting for Blue science packs to be done, so having robots do all the work for me would turn Factorio into an idle game. If I wanted that, I could just go to the main menu and watch the simulations and not even enter the game myself, ever.

Taking the tedious out of the game would result in there being no more game.
Feel free to disagree. Come back in 20 years when you have carpel tunnel and we can talk about QoL again.

Just because someone isn’t you doesn’t mean they are wrong.

Life lesson. Learn it.

Factorio is a sandbox where you get to decide what is fun for you.

I’m never waiting for science. It’s always churning way ahead of where I am.

My bottleneck is ALWAYS not having enough me and bots to build what I’m trying to build. Even with tens of thousands of bots across many robonets.

🤷‍♂️

There is always something for me and my bots to do. And they reduce my wrist pain. So it’s ABSOLUTELY a QoL item for me. Without them I wouldn’t be able to play. Or I’d have to mod something like them in.
Saphira123456 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:46 am ------------------------------------------------------------------
When you can do everything in two steps, click-click-boom, then there's no real reason to not go click-click-boom every time. So by adding robots, congratulations: You just reduced the entire game of Factorio to two clicks and then a whole lot of what is essentially watching paint dry. How fun. /s
------------------------------------------------------------------

If this game didn't have tedious, boring, repetitive tasks there would be no game, just a wait. I often find myself watching YouTube or Netflix or even television while I wait for science packs to be produced and labs to do their thing with said science packs as it is, and adding robots would make this even worse.

Starting right around blue science, Factorio becomes an idle game, little more than an interactive screensaver.
Ah, ok. We play Factorio very differently. To me it’s a design game. I’m over planning my next build and solving puzzles while the bots deal with the tedium. Plopping down things manually isn’t fun to me.

;)

BTW: the game design is that right around blue science you have to massively scale your factory up. And that is why you have things like robots unlocked around that point. And circuits to help fine tune things like ore outposts and other bulk operations that will get you more blue science per second. If you’re waiting for blue science, that means you aren’t making it quickly enough. Or … you know .. you could also just wait. That’s another option. But it’s just math.

If you have 12 blue science assemblers and you’re waiting 8 hours for a research to complete, you can double that and only wait for 4 hours. Or you can 20 times it and not wait at all. It will be done while you’re using the restroom or whatever.
Last edited by Tricorius on Sat Nov 11, 2023 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Nidan »

Tooster wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:33 pm
DeadMG wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:33 pm [...] The second thing I'd like most is the ability to select certain properties from red or green only.. stuff like everything * everything would be a lot more useful if you could say "red everything * green everything".
YES. Vector operations, would perform out := green <OP> red for each channel at the same time. Yup. So many times I wanted to have this in the game...
SteelWolf300 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:20 am Arithmetic pointwise operations is a big one.
Shameless plug for some blueprints that can do red <op> green in 1.1.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Saphira123456 »

Tricorius wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 5:22 am
Saphira123456 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:46 am ------------------------------------------------------------------
When you can do everything in two steps, click-click-boom, then there's no real reason to not go click-click-boom every time. So by adding robots, congratulations: You just reduced the entire game of Factorio to two clicks and then a whole lot of what is essentially watching paint dry. How fun. /s
------------------------------------------------------------------

If this game didn't have tedious, boring, repetitive tasks there would be no game, just a wait. I often find myself watching YouTube or Netflix or even television while I wait for science packs to be produced and labs to do their thing with said science packs as it is, and adding robots would make this even worse.

Starting right around blue science, Factorio becomes an idle game, little more than an interactive screensaver.
Ah, ok. We play Factorio very differently. To me it’s a design game. I’m over planning my next build and solving puzzles while the bots deal with the tedium. Plopping down things manually isn’t fun to me.

;)
I agree, we do play Factorio differently. I never plan in advance, instead I go with the flow. Everything's spontaneous, I come up with new stuff and new layouts on the spot. That's also why I don't tend to use the blueprint feature either, because no two builds of mine are ever going to be alike, even within the same game.

I always try to have a large stockpile of science ready to go before I even touch construction.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Carnivale »

I would like to see the output signals being colored, just like the input signals are. Maybe someone already suggested it, just didn't have the time to read through all the comments.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Cerberus »

Qon wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:30 pm
crj wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:53 pm
if you have some ideas (for the Selector combinator) we would welcome them
How about some kind of unique-ID mechanism? That would be really handy in multiplexing signals from different parts of a mega-base, and is currently tricky to do. (The best way I know of is to leave a locomotive permanently parked at a train stop!)
Constant combinators can with logistics groups share the same value to all other constant combinators. If the logistics group can also be influenced by input signals then we have global variables which can be incremented to generate new unique IDs. And the random mode of the selector combinator can be used to resolve ID conflicts, deciding which circuit should pick a new ID and which one should keep it. But I don't know if logistic groups can get input signals or if they are limited to values set in GUI on the constant combinators. That seems likely from how it has been written. And constant combinators storing constants instead of variables seems obvious from the name.
It would be bad if constant combinators could have variable values. With the addition of logistic groups, it would mean values could be teleported across the map or even universe for free, with the use of magic.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Svip »

I wonder if the developers experienced in their playtesting to use any index but 0 for the selector combinator's first function. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where you wish to select any other index but 0 after the list has been sorted. I'd suggest simplifying it into a min/max function instead, if there is never a true need for the other index positions. (Of course, if someone else can imagine such a scenario, I'd welcome it.)

Also, why call it "rocket capacity" and not just "weight"? A rocket's capacity is based on weight (or mass, if you will), and there are likely to be mods to take advantage of this new feature. Honestly, I wonder if trains in the base game should not also take advantage of weight, not to limit capacity, but to limit acceleration instead.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by thriem »

Excited about these changes way more than is good for me.
Functions I really want to see:
  • D-Latch - To capture a moment in time and hold it
  • Not technically combinators, but some means to display output - we have colors, but no numbers and what I would love would be graphs, since it allows for "historic" data
  • Hysteresis - useful specially on requesting
and some more ideas, but I found solutions I can live with - the listed items on the other hand were things I used so often in confined spaces - where not much other logic was going on.
Min / Max, median as well as some pulse-modulator would be nice too.

However, I'd like to have this feature already to toy around with it more often and figure out new things I'd need to.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by mrudat »

I've got to wonder if it would be feasible to name circuit network... networks.

I think it would be nice to include the connected output circuit networks in addition to the inputs in the GUI.

I think the ideal way to handle red/green circuits would be to add a setting for choosing wire colours and have that reflected in the colour of the wires in-game and all of the GUI elements.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Wilm0rien »

I really like these changes but I want to point out that I'm currently missing the following features:
  • a timer combinator to trigger events after some time: for example my bots are starting to repair the mines too early so they get destroyed by flames or bugs so I would like to delay them. or I want my laser turrents to be unpowered and only be powered while I'm under attack.
  • a combinator which connects to the production statistic so I get alerted if some production line falls below a critical level.
  • a simple upper and lower boundary combinator to produce an item until the upper boundary is reached and then stop producing it until the stock falls below the lower boundary (similar to the d-latch suggestion above but more specific because I think this is the most popular use case)
  • a chart combinator which shows its own statistic over time and which allows actions to trigger if a median or average value within a time interval has been reached. the chart should be visible as line plot or heatmap so you can understand complex situations in a mega factories.
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Re: Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

Post by Sad_Brother »

protocol_1903 wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:20 amAnother idea: allow circuit signals to enable/disable splitters, set filters (but not which side is the filtered output) and read contents. Alternatively, have both sides of the splitter have different inputs and outputs for more control. I would also like to see similar controls on underground belts, if possible.
Haha!

It would be so fun to have splitters behave like triggers. Both sides have points to connect signals. Ability to read and write any option. Ability to set filter and read content. It would be so fun to try it.

Underground belts seems can only supply content. I doubt it would be useful to change moving direction.

EDIT:
Wilm0rien wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:58 am
  • a timer combinator to trigger events after some time: for example my bots are starting to repair the mines too early so they get destroyed by flames or bugs so I would like to delay them. or I want my laser turrents to be unpowered and only be powered while I'm under attack.
  • a combinator which connects to the production statistic so I get alerted if some production line falls below a critical level.
  • a simple upper and lower boundary combinator to produce an item until the upper boundary is reached and then stop producing it until the stock falls below the lower boundary (similar to the d-latch suggestion above but more specific because I think this is the most popular use case)
  • a chart combinator which shows its own statistic over time and which allows actions to trigger if a median or average value within a time interval has been reached. the chart should be visible as line plot or heatmap so you can understand complex situations in a mega factories.
  • a timer combinator - easily doable already.
  • a combinator which connects to the production statistic - magic :( .
  • a simple upper and lower boundary combinator - easily doable already.
  • a chart combinator which shows its own statistic over time and which allows actions to trigger if a median or average value within a time interval has been reached. the chart should be visible as line plot or heatmap so you can understand complex situations in a mega factories. - Chart is good, actions to trigger is bad (use other tools), heatmap is bad as you would need a lot to describe where and when to draw a heat.
Also how about idea of Constant Combinator 2.0?
Stores content of input network when got some external signal. Can select Red, Green or both networks as input, output and control.

Best wishes!
Last edited by Sad_Brother on Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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