Friday Facts #383 - Super force building

[Qon]

My point is that having 2 levels of "Forcing the build", unless there's a specific reason for it, seems like unnecessary complexity. What is the use case for separating a "force" and a "super force"? It seems these should be the same functionality.

Super force is used to build rail through a solar field as shown in the FFF. Rail placed after solar, but has priority.

Force is used to put solar field around tracks, same build but the tracks were placed first and solar after.

It makes sense to have a mode that forces the removal of objects in the way; this is fine. However, I question what use case there is for specifically allowing the truncating of blueprints where the land is unsuitable (water tiles). The other features - while useful - would likewise make sense to put into "Force build".

Force is also used to place walls up to a body of water. You don't want to landfill on it, you want the natural protection it offers. Or you are placing solar and don't yet have or can't afford to place landfill.

[computeraddict]

If "Force Build" removes trees/rocks/cliffs, why would it be a separate function to remove buildings, as well?

Because you frequently paste things to interact with other buildings while wanting to get rid of trees, rocks, and cliffs that don't interact with those buildings?

[Architector_4]

Will there be super force by-hand building for when you don't have construction bots?

Terraria did this in its 1.4 update, where, for example, you can hold LMB on a block of dirt with a block of wood to mine it and automatically replace it with that wood.

It could be really handy to hold CTRL+LMB with inserters over conveyor belts, or even just trees, to collect them and replace them with those inserters quicker than having to perform a dance on the mouse.

[Qon]

Will there be super force by-hand building for when you don't have construction bots?

What about mining speed?

[Architector_4]

Will there be super force by-hand building for when you don't have construction bots?

What about mining speed?

I mean yeah, of course, that needs to be considered too. In Terraria you don't replace blocks instantly, you have to hold left mouse button for exactly the amount of time needed to mine the block below with your pickaxe (or forever if your pickaxe can't mine the block). That's why I'm saying "hold" lol

[j_matya]

I wonder if you can soft-lock yourself by

1. not having bots,
2. picking up landfill behind you,
3. and placing all of it ahead of you

Since IIRC you need for example real concrete "in-hand" to hand-mine it the placed tiles...

You can add landfill to your toolbar and then select it from there to be given the ghost tool, which can then be used to remove the landfill so you can replace it.

Wow, 2k+ hours in the game and never noticed this. Thanks!
(LFMF: apparently this seems not to be trivial)

[FuryoftheStars]

I wonder if you can soft-lock yourself by

1. not having bots,
2. picking up landfill behind you,
3. and placing all of it ahead of you

Since IIRC you need for example real concrete "in-hand" to hand-mine it the placed tiles...

You can add landfill to your toolbar and then select it from there to be given the ghost tool, which can then be used to remove the landfill so you can replace it.

Wow, 2k+ hours in the game and never noticed this. Thanks!
(LFMF: apparently this seems not to be trivial)

Yeah, you need to click an empty toolbar spot (clearing one first if you don't have any), find the item to click and add to the toolbar, then click again from the toolbar to select.

There is an old suggestion thread regarding using the Pipette tool (Q by default) right from the crafting menu to put an item in your hand (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45724) that I think would be handy to have implemented, especially if it puts it as a ghost if you don't have any of the item.

There's also a couple of mods out there that currently implement such features, like this one here: Cursor Enhancements

[Shakrii]

While the space exploration is neat and something that I will be interested in exploring upon release; It is al the quality of life (many feeling based on existing mods) that is making me very exited for the upcoming expansion.

[blazespinnaker]

This will change blueprint speed runs massively, as we can now do incremental blueprints without any manual adjusting between prints.

[fusionfan]

Yes! Yes! Magnificent!

[SalaryLupin]

If we can lay down water tiles, it would mean complete liberation from bugs, as they cannot cross water...

[Koub]

If we can lay down water tiles, it would mean complete liberation from bugs, as they cannot cross water...

You didn't read, we can't lay down water tiles, we can remove landfill tiles we have layed down.

[blazespinnaker]

If we can lay down water tiles, it would mean complete liberation from bugs, as they cannot cross water...

Or will it.. dunh dunh dunhhhh

[Miroro]

If we can lay down water tiles, it would mean complete liberation from bugs, as they cannot cross water...

You didn't read, we can't lay down water tiles, we can remove landfill tiles we have layed down.

I agree that making water anywhere is not a good idea, but honestly I'm suprised that there is no any possibility to build a well that can deliver water. This is such a normal thing in real life. Can be similar to oil with limited capacity/pumping speed, could be upgradable. Placing hundreds of pipes and many pumps to bring water through a big base is kind of boring now. Using trains to transport water is also strange but.... we have what we have.

[Danjen]

Maybe it was mentioned already but how will this affect Biters?

Currently in Vanilla, you can build landfill on every other tile, which means if you're playing an island or water-heavy map, you can create shortcuts or un-pathable areas with this technique. I understand that you're only removing landfill you've placed, but if you have a solid land bridge that you can yank up on a moment's notice, it feels like Biters will need more tools (swimming, flying, better pathing) to deal with it.

This might already be planned, given the early concept art of that one biter from last (?) year

[Koub]

I understand that you're only removing landfill you've placed, but if you have a solid land bridge that you can yank up on a moment's notice, it feels like Biters will need more tools (swimming, flying, better pathing) to deal with it.

A landbridge with a 1 tile chokepoint is defendable with minimal resources for ages. It wouldn't be totally free as a "landfill that can be removed" would be, but I don't feel the engineer will earn that much of a new unfair advantage.

[XelSelenius]

Instead of Super Force building, couldn't it just be force building, with a toggle for removing what's already there?

Normal: Regular placement of Blueprint

Forced: Applied by Shift + Click. Works for Trees, Rocks, and Cliffs

Supper Forced: Will work the same way as above but will also apply landfill in the areas where there is water. Therefore you do not need to landfill the place with water before you place BP or do this again because there was ONE spot with water right under a building.

[Danjen]

I understand that you're only removing landfill you've placed, but if you have a solid land bridge that you can yank up on a moment's notice, it feels like Biters will need more tools (swimming, flying, better pathing) to deal with it.

A landbridge with a 1 tile chokepoint is defendable with minimal resources for ages. It wouldn't be totally free as a "landfill that can be removed" would be, but I don't feel the engineer will earn that much of a new unfair advantage.

You misunderstand. It's not a 1-tile chokepoint, it's a landfill being placed every other tile like [L W L W L W L]. This is walkable by the player, but impassable for biters. You don't need a single gun to defend it. It's been many months since I've played, perhaps they've corrected this?

[Nidan]

You misunderstand. It's not a 1-tile chokepoint, it's a landfill being placed every other tile like [L W L W L W L]. This is walkable by the player, but impassable for biters. You don't need a single gun to defend it. It's been many months since I've played, perhaps they've corrected this?

It's even been mentioned in a FFF that biter AI can't handle single tile gaps, so the devs are certainly aware of this and they didn't see a reason to change it. Maybe 2.0 changes things...

[ElderAxe]

But how would you add it to a blueprint if whenever you place it it is already gone?

If it only deconstructs itself after being placed, just blueprint the ghost?

That has issues as well. You want your self-deleting item to be required to be placed then, by a bot. Which then has to remove the entity as well? How do you make sure the logistics network has the item? How do you get enough quantity? That's kind of weird. And how do you then place ghosts and prevent bots from placing them and then deconstruct them again?

With manual deconstruction of wooden chests you can just not have any wooden chests. And you can remove them while they are ghosts. And there's no burden on the construction bots carrying entities back and forth you don't actually want. That's otherwise potentially an enormous load that cripples your construction of actual entities and might also send your power into a death spiral.

So in the end, wooden boxes in empty spots of a super force built blueprint that are then removed with a filter planner seems like it does the job even better, just requires an extra step simple step.

I thought of wooden boxes too.

But it kind of did not satisfy me. Wooden boxes, if built, do block player movement. And they can interact with other entities.

Ghosts don't block player movement. Ghosts don't interact with other entities. Wooden boxes are an example of a 1 tile item that is never crafted.

You know we have some capabilities to modify a blueprint like removing an entity or setting the snap anchor etc.
Maybe we could have a way of adding deconstruction marks to empty tiles in blueprints. So we can mark those tiles that can break the blueprint.

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