Friday Facts #378 - Trains on another level

[Fevix]

I will say, looking at the pictures, it's a bit difficult to properly parse where the train lines actually are. The ramps, when viewed from the side, look like a curve.

If you have a four-lane 'highway' of rails, with say the outer two lanes elevated when it's laid out horizontally it won't look even. The top two rails will look much further apart than the bottom two rails, even if they're technically evenly spaced.

[Saphira123456]

1. Regarding my logic for "unfair advantage": There is a PvP scenario. Those that have the DLC would have the advantage in said scenario as they would have items the other side doesn't.

Someone without the DLC cannot join a game where the DLC is enabled and someone with the DLC would have to disable it in order to join a game without it.

Additionally, as this is a radical game-alteration, not having it be vanilla feels like they are essentially forcing you to buy the DLC to make the planetside game easier on yourself, enabling you to avoid at least some types of junctions and all the signaling and other things involved, as mentioned in their OP.

Well, yeah. They just put months of work into this new system. They shouldn't be expected to give it up for free into the main game. And as they said, they did this in part because they expect factories to grow even larger and for the player to be away at other planets... thus unable to see or deal with any issues that arise. They wanted to give additional tools to help alleviate this.

2A: I apologize as I have never seen a puzzle in this game, so you'll have to explain what you mean by "puzzle aspect". To me, there is no puzzle aspect and never was; and since there was never a puzzle aspect, you cannot remove what you never had to begin with.

The entire game is a puzzle game.

2B: As in real life, loose materials are those like coal, iron ore, gears, screws... small components and other items that you want a LOT of. Another term would be "bulk materials". Larger items like inserters, conveyor belt segments, entire locomotives and train cars, assemblers, etcetera are not "loose".

You misunderstand. Internally, ore is no different from locomotives (as items). There is no concept of size or weight, so how do you differentiate?

1. That makes sense.

2. Actually, they should. Other games have put months of work into their DLCs and have given this stuff away for free by making it an addition to the main game. So time spent is no excuse, using that will just cause players to shift games.

3. No, it's not a puzzle game and never has been. It's a construction game, no different than some tycoon games like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Zoo Tycoon. The primary difference between them is money versus time - in tycoon games you need in-game money to get items, in Factorio you need time.

4. Fair point. So those unloading bins would actually work for all items.

[blazespinnaker]

Fundamentally changes trains. Contention was the bottleneck for mass rail / short trains, but this removes contention.

Minor critique - be nice if we could paint the elevation to something other than red as it will become somewhat dominant.

[MegaMU]

Can we walk on the bridges?

Game finished
You have been defeated

you was killed by Locomotive at [Location: 0,0]

[infogulch]

But the one thing I absolutely hate is that it seems like the rail support having a different hitbox depending on whether or not its rotation is directly along the X and Y axis or somewhere in the middle (looking at the picture with the different rotations of the support).
Should imho just be a solid 4x4 hitbox in all directions of rotation.

Completely agreed, this is a crazy imo

[blazespinnaker]

No, i decided it would not be fun mechanic and it would have its own performance impact for all trains running in all cases since i would have to scan entire train if each rolling stock is on a slope to compute some additional forces acting on a train, so i just skipped it. There are also some internal assumptions like a train on automatic must never go backward (it can only consume its path to destination, never revert) so if a train would go out of fuel and would start moving backward the game would have to handle that case as well. I am ok with performance impact if something is fun to play but Factorio is not about realizm, its about fun and this would not be fun.

That's not exactly true, factorio is about interesting realism. The fundamental conceit of factorio is about interesting realism - building up a rocket from nothing more than a pick axe and a single miner.

Biggest fun bang for buck realism is what it's about though, and this seems like it would be a tiny bang.

An example of a massive bang for buck is naming. So cost free, but as hopefully we've all seen with the quality stuff, critical for suspending disbelief and creating an immersive experience. Another huge bang for buck would be lore, though that requires a certain skillset which Wube might not have, and so maybe it is a costly bang.

Another good example of big bang for buck realism would be spacheship acceleration / deceleration, which SE skipped out on but I'm hoping SA is smart enough to incorporate. It's in there for trains, a little bit, though I honestly think more could have been done. Dealing with the intricacies of accel/decel is a complex puzzle that creates a lot of interesting problems.

There can also be optional based realism, for example inventory. Probably a mod, but given the lazy bastard achievement, I believe an option which severely restricted inventory (eg, carrying around a stack of oil refineries? whaaat?) would have been a cool idea. Along with that though should come some kind of early placement robots. Would make speed running more interesting as well.

[blazespinnaker]

Another example of bang for buck realism, a perfect example really, is Quality.

So, no, I wouldn't say "Factorio is not about realizm"

[mmmPI]

2. Actually, they should. Other games have put months of work into their DLCs and have given this stuff away for free by making it an addition to the main game. So time spent is no excuse, using that will just cause players to shift games.

Actually time spent is a major reason to price things higher in real life in case you didn't know. I think it's pretty rude to ask for people's hard work for free as it's their decision to choose what they give for free and what is part of the expansion. ( cuz that's how people that make videos games lives, they sell the videos games especially when they do not rely on lootbox and do not put half-baked DLC every 2 week that are so bad they could be given for free half of the time to stop the complaints about the bugs inside them and people feeling scammed). Others games do that too

3. No, it's not a puzzle game and never has been. It's a construction game, no different than some tycoon games like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Zoo Tycoon. The primary difference between them is money versus time - in tycoon games you need in-game money to get items, in Factorio you need time.

You seem to arbitrarily classify the game outside of puzzle range for unclear reason while bringing a comparaison that's quite far fetched to put it in a genre that's not defining factorio better. In factorio you have a character that shoot ennemy. VERY different from a Roller Coaster game, not sure how you play Zoo tycoon you monster.

Yes factorio is a puzzle game ! and has always been, it also is a construction game or a survivor game. But really it is THE defining game for the automation game ! That's sound to me pretty weird to insist strongly on "construction game" which is not a perfect term and exclude "puzzle game" which fits just as well when there are better terms that exist.

But the one thing I absolutely hate is that it seems like the rail support having a different hitbox depending on whether or not its rotation is directly along the X and Y axis or somewhere in the middle (looking at the picture with the different rotations of the support).
Should imho just be a solid 4x4 hitbox in all directions of rotation.

Completely agreed, this is a crazy imo

I have a solution : do not use the extra space available when the footprint is a cross, just pretend there is no extra space

[FuryoftheStars]

2. Actually, they should. Other games have put months of work into their DLCs and have given this stuff away for free by making it an addition to the main game. So time spent is no excuse, using that will just cause players to shift games.

Well, that's other games. Each game's devs have to evaluate what they think is going to work best for what they want to accomplish. If the game has already made enough money, continues to sell enough copies (at a sufficient enough of a price tag), and/or there's no (more) need to build a cash reserve for other (until released, unpaid) projects, then the devs of that game can afford to release new content for "free" to existing players if they so choose. But really, to the idea that it "will just cause players to shift games" (if it isn't released for free), if they're not willing to pay for the DLC, then the devs wouldn't have made any money on it either way.

As it is, these devs decided a few years ago to create a DLC that they would seek money for rather than continue adding to the base game and increasing its price tag in representation of the amount of work they put into it. In the course of developing it, they also worked on these elevated rails for the DLC and, by their own choice, decided to make it something that you can enable/disable separately from the rest of the DLC. So, to me, it makes sense that it gets bundled in. I mean, they're already planning on giving us several engine (and I believe yet to be announced UI) updates for free as it is.

3. No, it's not a puzzle game and never has been. It's a construction game, no different than some tycoon games like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Zoo Tycoon. The primary difference between them is money versus time - in tycoon games you need in-game money to get items, in Factorio you need time.

It's a construction logistics puzzle game. One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to the other. The puzzle is figuring out how to accomplish what you want to accomplish with the tools and subsequent constraints given to you.

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But the one thing I absolutely hate is that it seems like the rail support having a different hitbox depending on whether or not its rotation is directly along the X and Y axis or somewhere in the middle (looking at the picture with the different rotations of the support).
Should imho just be a solid 4x4 hitbox in all directions of rotation.

Completely agreed, this is a crazy imo

Why? What's the problem with this? As mmmPi suggested:

do not use the extra space available when the footprint is a cross, just pretend there is no extra space

But honestly, it can and does make sense:

(This is a rough approximation considering the devs tend to put their sprites slightly off-center and the 3D -> 2D perspective makes it hard to get the exact footprint.)

New stanchion at 0 and 45 degrees.png (3.34 KiB) Viewed 3670 times

Then just figure that the devs decided that if the sprite doesn't extend very far into the tile then there's no reason to not allow you to build there.

---------------------------------

There can also be optional based realism, for example inventory. Probably a mod, but given the lazy bastard achievement, I believe an option which severely restricted inventory (eg, carrying around a stack of oil refineries? whaaat?) would have been a cool idea. Along with that though should come some kind of early placement robots. Would make speed running more interesting as well.

You don't know how badly I've wanted to do something like this. But for me, I'd want to take it to the point were everything had a "volume", that way you couldn't carry some of these around in your backpack, car trunk, or even cargo wagon (being able to fit another cargo wagon (or locomotive) inside of a cargo wagon? Let alone dozens?), but then you'd need a way to construct (and deconstruct) these on site via builders (which we don't get until well after oil) out of their base components.

[ema]

Looking at the "island crossing" example more closely. There is a radar powered by accumulators, but there don't seem to be anything refilling the accumulators.

When setting up something for the purposes of screenshots, why does it have to be perfect?

I was just thinking maybe they're hinting at a new mechanic.

[BlackKnight]

Looking at the "island crossing" example more closely. There is a radar powered by accumulators, but there don't seem to be anything refilling the accumulators.

When setting up something for the purposes of screenshots, why does it have to be perfect?

I was just thinking maybe they're hinting at a new mechanic.

Yeah, when I saw the original comment it had me eyeing any possible connections to the new bridge entities very closely. It wouldn't surprise me if the railings actually connected power - or if the under carriage of the platforms contained a connection point. Regardless, its too hard to see in this screenshot, but the batteries certainly were powered - so were connected to something at some point long enough to charge them. It honestly would seems a little out of character for these to be artificially/haphazardly placed/charged just for a screenshot .

[BlackKnight]

Yet another Friday with unprecedented changes being announced. Absolutely insane.
Ha! Thinking forward, no idea how you will top these past few weeks posts' but I have no doubt you will!

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As mentioned, the Hopper/Funnel unloader and corresponding Silo loader would be exciting to see included as new entities if possible (And requisite elevated station.) All that is missing now is elevated foot/traffic bridges. Also elevated conveyor belts!

Electric poles with supports above water would be awesome if possible. Also electric poles or wires somehow integrated/given their own supports.

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Visual control.
A big concern for many, myself included is obfuscated view due to the new bridge entities. If not already added, please reconsider supporting an 'xray'/reveal-behind ability alt-like hotkey to make elevated entities hidden/transparent and click through, for operation on items behind. I often have this issue already trying to access inserters/etc behind horizontal trains.

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Regarding the visual aspect, as a few others have already mentioned, it resembles more of a rollercoaster than a real railroad. I'd be happier to see the ramp made even longer.

Re rollercoster feel: I agree, but mainly due to them using wooden ties. I think instead metal girders/steel ties would help a lot with making some of us take the tracks more seriously?

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Something I'd like to see is speed integration. Each rail entity is given max speed ratings and turns/ramps are lower so when pathing a route, would preemptively slow to meet speed limit -- just like preemptively slows before signals.

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This is absolutely cool stuff, I love those complex crossings in the example screenshots. Unfortunately though I do have to be honest and make a few remarks about things that I would rather see different, hereby understanding the enourmous amount of work you put into this already. First, I don't like how you can rotate the support in 8 directions, that conflicts too much with the rest of the game imo. Why not make a universal (round?) support that the rail will attach to in a neat manner when laid over it? And it does not make sense that the ground footprint becomes different when the support is rotated, it's the same structure after all. This adds unneeded un-fun complexity IMO. Also, I don't like the look of the elevated rail itself. This looks more like a roller coaster track than something that can carry a badass couple-hundred-tons train that kills anything standing in it's path. I understand that you try to make the rail see-through but I'm affraid that having a multi-layer system in the game will require modification of the game engine anyway, like being able to hide the elevate rails by mouse-over or with a button somewhere like other games do also. Even with the see-through rails it seems still hard to see or build what's underneath there.

I concur. They should have the same 4x4 hitbox. Counter argument: Otherwise add more granular hitboxes to other entities. Reason: its the only one in the game with an unusual hitbox. There are plenty of others that could use more refinement but dont. If we open this box, others should be reassessed.

And actually, I'm surprised there are so many iterations of elevated supports. It seems unnecessary since these could have been one or two sprites at most, one or two main rail base support sprites (just like the ramps) for rail with a rotating attachment top sprite to fit each rotation of the rails would suffice. This way they would all also have the same footprint.


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Also, when:

A trestle instead of a center support is a cool idea, since a lot of the time you're running parallel tracks anyway, and it would let you run a continuous belt (or pavement) under the train, instead of having to weave around supports every once in a while.

This sounds like a great idea. Would be really cool to have a bi-level system with two way traffic split between the top and bottom. Or would the space be open for use with anything - like belts/pipes etc?

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Could locomotives provide bidirectionally push/pull?
Seconded. This would make complete sense.

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There can also be optional based realism, for example inventory. Probably a mod, but given the lazy bastard achievement, I believe an option which severely restricted inventory (eg, carrying around a stack of oil refineries? whaaat?) would have been a cool idea. Along with that though should come some kind of early placement robots. Would make speed running more interesting as well.

You don't know how badly I've wanted to do something like this. But for me, I'd want to take it to the point were everything had a "volume", that way you couldn't carry some of these around in your backpack, car trunk, or even cargo wagon (being able to fit another cargo wagon (or locomotive) inside of a cargo wagon? Let alone dozens?), but then you'd need a way to construct (and deconstruct) these on site via builders (which we don't get until well after oil) out of their base components.

Thats exciting to think about. The only solution I can imagine is if something like the equipment-gantry (https://mods.factorio.com/mod/equipment-gantry) was actually able to place the final active entity.

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I'm all for locking this behind the expansion. They clearly stated how long it took to develop. What if all the train enthusiasts and of those who also didn't care as much about the other aspects of the game decided to skip the expansion if this was included for free? I'd say that would have been a missed opportunity.

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I feel Wube has given us so much already, its greedy to ask for more after what we've seen presented... though humbly, it would be cool to see a few additions/changes.

[Saphira123456]

2. Actually, they should. Other games have put months of work into their DLCs and have given this stuff away for free by making it an addition to the main game. So time spent is no excuse, using that will just cause players to shift games.

Well, that's other games. Each game's devs have to evaluate what they think is going to work best for what they want to accomplish. If the game has already made enough money, continues to sell enough copies (at a sufficient enough of a price tag), and/or there's no (more) need to build a cash reserve for other (until released, unpaid) projects, then the devs of that game can afford to release new content for "free" to existing players if they so choose. But really, to the idea that it "will just cause players to shift games" (if it isn't released for free), if they're not willing to pay for the DLC, then the devs wouldn't have made any money on it either way.

As it is, these devs decided a few years ago to create a DLC that they would seek money for rather than continue adding to the base game and increasing its price tag in representation of the amount of work they put into it. In the course of developing it, they also worked on these elevated rails for the DLC and, by their own choice, decided to make it something that you can enable/disable separately from the rest of the DLC. So, to me, it makes sense that it gets bundled in. I mean, they're already planning on giving us several engine (and I believe yet to be announced UI) updates for free as it is.

3. No, it's not a puzzle game and never has been. It's a construction game, no different than some tycoon games like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Zoo Tycoon. The primary difference between them is money versus time - in tycoon games you need in-game money to get items, in Factorio you need time.

It's a construction logistics puzzle game. One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to the other. The puzzle is figuring out how to accomplish what you want to accomplish with the tools and subsequent constraints given to you.

1. Let's take a look at some of the games that give you DLC content for free, shall we?

First and foremost is Space Engineers. Anything that'd be game-changing (such as new ways of collecting resources, new thrusters, new weapons, etcetera) are added to the base game when the DLC is released. That way all players have it. Meanwhile skins (optional UX/UI changes, for example) are the only things sold.

Then there's games like Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries, which also has paid and free components. UX/UI changes, some mechs, and even entire game modes are released as free, while others go into the paid DLC. Oh, and according to this very FFF post, you MUST HAVE the DLC in order to add the elevated rails to your game by enabling the mod. The mod WILL NOT WORK without the DLC, so you cannot actually enable them without buying the DLC.

2. It is not a puzzle game. It is a construction logistics and tycoon game. By your logic, any and all automation games (Factorio, Satisfactory, Captain of Industry, etcetera) must also be puzzle games.

[Saphira123456]

2. Actually, they should. Other games have put months of work into their DLCs and have given this stuff away for free by making it an addition to the main game. So time spent is no excuse, using that will just cause players to shift games.

Actually time spent is a major reason to price things higher in real life in case you didn't know. I think it's pretty rude to ask for people's hard work for free as it's their decision to choose what they give for free and what is part of the expansion. ( cuz that's how people that make videos games lives, they sell the videos games especially when they do not rely on lootbox and do not put half-baked DLC every 2 week that are so bad they could be given for free half of the time to stop the complaints about the bugs inside them and people feeling scammed). Others games do that too

3. No, it's not a puzzle game and never has been. It's a construction game, no different than some tycoon games like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Zoo Tycoon. The primary difference between them is money versus time - in tycoon games you need in-game money to get items, in Factorio you need time.

You seem to arbitrarily classify the game outside of puzzle range for unclear reason while bringing a comparaison that's quite far fetched to put it in a genre that's not defining factorio better. In factorio you have a character that shoot ennemy. VERY different from a Roller Coaster game, not sure how you play Zoo tycoon you monster.

Yes factorio is a puzzle game ! and has always been, it also is a construction game or a survivor game. But really it is THE defining game for the automation game ! That's sound to me pretty weird to insist strongly on "construction game" which is not a perfect term and exclude "puzzle game" which fits just as well when there are better terms that exist.

1. Explain to me how games like No Man's Sky (whose expansions have all been 100% free), Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries (game-changing stuff free, other stuff paid) and Space Engineers (game-changing stuff free, cosmetics paid) work in your universe then. Each takes months or even years to add stuff to the game. No lootboxes. No half-baked stuff.

I'm not asking for Wube to make this DLC 100% free. I'm simply asking them to move things like the elevated rail lines and the recycler out of mods and DLC and put them in the base game.

2. Factorio is not a puzzle game and has never been. It is an automation game, a construction game, a survival game, a tycoon game, but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever. And by the way, Zoo Tycoon and Jurassic World Evolution, etcetera, also include characters that shoot animals that escape their exhibits, albeit with tranquilizer darts and not bullets.

[mmmPI]

1. Explain to me how games like No Man's Sky (whose expansions have all been 100% free), Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries (game-changing stuff free, other stuff paid) and Space Engineers (game-changing stuff free, cosmetics paid) work in your universe then. Each takes months to add stuff to the game. No lootboxes. No half-baked stuff.

I don't want to talk badly on other games in the factorio forum because that's not going to illustrate why things that takes time to do are usually priced higher than things that takes no time to do. You said time is not an excuse for giving a price to the expansion content, i wanted to react because i think it's wrong.

Thanks Wube for not attempting to sell me an 3€ engineer suit every 2 month and not getting inspired by such practices.

2. Factorio is not a puzzle game and has never been. It is an automation game, a construction game, a survival game, a tycoon game,but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever. And by the way, Zoo Tycoon also includes characters that shoot animals that escape their exhibits, albeit with tranquilizer darts and not bullets.

You are not understanding the concept of puzzle game i think. In factorio you have a top down view of a 2D surface, like a puzzle, and on this surface you put pieces, like on a puzzle, to try and interact with the surface to meet your goal/solve a particular challenge with as tools the organisation of the pieces on the surface. Why do you say it has no aspect of a puzzle with such assertive tone ?

[Svip]

Calling Factorio a puzzle game is a bit of a stretch, but calling it a tycoon game is more wrong. In Factorio there is no game over when you run out of money. Even if your base is completely starved of resources, you can always get it back on its feet (just a lot of manual labour). You need that end game scenario for a game to be a tycoon game.

The primary gameplay loop in Factorio is automation, but with automation comes an underlying puzzle challenge: how to automate the production chains; usually in as few steps, resources and little real estate as possible. That's the puzzle challenge in Factorio. And it's constant. As others point out, railway construction is far more limited than belt construction, so they come with their own set of puzzle challenges. More directions and elevated rails definitely makes the puzzle challenge of railway construction easier.

[GrumpyJoe]

How can you exit when train is over water?
Could we deadlock the game by being on a train that runs out of fuel over water, or is it "just" a death sentence?

We also thought about this (remote) possibility, and there will be a way to solve it.

Hovercraft to the rescue!

[ixale]

Since each recent FFF delivers something amazing (especially smarter robots and these rollercoasters), I really hope one of the next one will be called something like "Let there be water: building canals for dummies"

[Saphira123456]

1. Explain to me how games like No Man's Sky (whose expansions have all been 100% free), Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries (game-changing stuff free, other stuff paid) and Space Engineers (game-changing stuff free, cosmetics paid) work in your universe then. Each takes months to add stuff to the game. No lootboxes. No half-baked stuff.

I don't want to talk badly on other games in the factorio forum because that's not going to illustrate why things that takes time to do are usually priced higher than things that takes no time to do. You said time is not an excuse for giving a price to the expansion content, i wanted to react because i think it's wrong.

Thanks Wube for not attempting to sell me an 3€ engineer suit every 2 month and not getting inspired by such practices.

2. Factorio is not a puzzle game and has never been. It is an automation game, a construction game, a survival game, a tycoon game,but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever. And by the way, Zoo Tycoon also includes characters that shoot animals that escape their exhibits, albeit with tranquilizer darts and not bullets.

You are not understanding the concept of puzzle game i think. In factorio you have a top down view of a 2D surface, like a puzzle, and on this surface you put pieces, like on a puzzle, to try and interact with the surface to meet your goal/solve a particular challenge with as tools the organisation of the pieces on the surface. Why do you say it has no aspect of a puzzle with such assertive tone ?

2. Just because you put pieces on a board, that doesn't mean it's a puzzle game. Otherwise board games, strategy games, and many, many others would also be considered puzzle games.

[mmmPI]

but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever.

2. Just because you put pieces on a board, that doesn't mean it's a puzzle game. Otherwise board games, strategy games, and many, many others would also be considered puzzle games.

There is a puzzle aspect that i'm glad you recognize now, maybe it will help you understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game.