Friday Facts #375 - Quality

[Zeg]

There's many points to discuss about this whole thing (as seen in this thread), but the one that's really needling me is the quality moduled recycler loop thing...

We already have limits on where Prod modules can be used, but apparently it's okay to recycle low tier items into higher tier components somehow?

That just seems silly. And the strange recycling loop thing it leads to also seems gross in some way... certainly a noob trap that will just sink a ton of resources for RNGs sake.

[Qualenski]

They have to be trolling

[Strix]

I actually love the quality feature and it's non-intrusive design.

Unless you are a completionist and need full-legendary megafactory, or someone with any amount of OCD and uneven production or part performance ticks you off (The entire quality feature can be completely bypassed) then I think this is an amazing addition.

For me this is like extra / nice to have thing, or something to chase in mid-/end-game, and another way to upgrade and optimize.

But since the game is not balanced around it, it can be considered something extra (as others mentioned). Can be used to focus on quality production for low-volume items like armor or personal weapons. Or just using base quality parts for most of the factory and higher quality for bottlenecks (for people without a plan, like me) or main bus lines.

Yes, it comes with extra logistics challenge if you like things sorted (duh), but I think that is worth the reward. I personally like the stochastic element to the production, some extra challenge with potential benefits and bit of a looter shooter crafter, be it little happy accidents upgrades once in a while, or burning obscene amounts of natural resources for that legendary chase

and become exceedingly efficient at it

.

[Toguro21]

This is absolutely awesome. Some of the negative posts sound as if they didn't read through the post a couple times to grasp the full idea of how the quality will work and how it's completely optional.

100% name changes are required (also would love to see just a star system in place instead of colors, 1-4 small stars and one large star for 'legemdary')

I believe this idea in itself would have been enough content for an expansion. Super excited!

Awesome work, you've got my purchase locked in.

[AirForce1]

This is absolutely awesome. Some of the negative posts sound as if they didn't read through the post a couple times to grasp the full idea of how the quality will work and how it's completely optional.

100% name changes are required (also would love to see just a star system in place instead of colors, 1-4 small stars and one large star for 'legemdary')

I believe this idea in itself would have been enough content for an expansion. Super excited!

Awesome work, you've got my purchase locked in.

I read whole post and I dont like this!

[kitt159]

To take it even further, the concept of quality as described in the blog post seems to be inspired by or perhaps even a direct implementation of the process of "binning" used by any chip fab in real life: https://www.howtogeek.com/705101/what-i ... components. Basically for any given "line" of CPU's on the market, the lowest tier one was actually produced potentially in the same batch as the highest tier, but due to flaws in the process just can't hit peak performance like its brothers. They still sell the lower tier products because it cost just as much to make them as the "legendary" results, and they're still useful... just maybe for different applications.

That's exactly what I was thinking too.

Plus I think most people imagine that their mainbus will now have to contain all the qualities of iron plate, copper plate and so on, but it absolutely does not. What are computers made of? Transistors. They're basically annoying. They have a lot of dynamic properties like maximum and minimum voltage, current, frequency and many others. So what would you do with a component like that? You build a circuit out of it that works with nice ones and zeros. Similarly, you can design the factory so that all randomness is hidden inside and only items of a given quality come out, as shown in FFF.

While I find the overall idea a bit scary, it's too complex to figure out all the implications right now, so I'm open to it. We also have to consider that we don't have a complete picture of what the game will eventually look like. Maybe the next FFF will show that it fits in the game more than what it looks like now.

But those names are terrible.

[coppercoil]

I'm not a fan of quality tiers, but I think I could live with them. I'm fine with random products, though I think 5 tiers are too much. For me, 3 tiers would be ok, because I won't use intermediates anyway. When I build my next 10^n SPM megabase, I use only highest tiers of everything because they are the best. No intermediates.

I think we lost the most important thing: we all in this thread are not average players. I believe most players do not build megabases, and do not build higher tiers items/modules, and maybe do not use beacons at all, and so on. I have heard (I may be wrong) that 20% (80%?) of players do not even finish vanilla (a rocket launch). Will they use quality tears, or will complain about complexity even if those tiers are optional? You can see in this thread, many experienced players feel not happy with this, how about an average player? I guess only 5% of all the players will use quality tiers. Is that mess worth it?

[unshortness]

I did think this was a joke when I first started reading it, but after getting through the entire post, reading all of the comments, and thinking about this for a while I'm really excited for this part of the expansion. I don't like the names of the tiers and if they do consider changing it my vote is for what Super Mikal posted:

Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.

[AirForce1]

I'm not a fan of quality tiers, but I think I could live with them. I'm fine with random products, though I think 5 tiers are too much. For me, 3 tiers would be ok, because I won't use intermediates anyway. When I build my next 10^n SPM megabase, I use only highest tiers of everything because they are the best. No intermediates.

I think we lost the most important thing: we all in this thread are not average players. I believe most players do not build megabases, and do not build higher tiers items/modules, and maybe do not use beacons at all, and so on. I have heard (I may be wrong) that 20% (80%?) of players do not even finish vanilla (a rocket launch). Will they use quality tears, or will complain about complexity even if those tiers are optional? You can see in this thread, many experienced players feel not happy with this, how about an average player? I guess only 5% of all the players will use quality tiers. Is that mess worth it?

Youre absolutely right in every way! Also if they have to add this madness of qulity they should implement this absolutely different way. There should not be some stupid modules but factories should have switch for desired tier quality and according to this the speed of production and number of input materias should change. Its same as the real world production. If yoou desire some kind of quality you have quality control that let pass only items with desired quality!

[Joe Black]

GREAT !!!

[Usul]

Please rename the quality tiers to more technical sounding terms. Don't use generic Fantasy Action RPG item tier terms. This doesn't suit Factorio at all!

Please reconsider, thank you!

[Splitframe]

I guess only 5% of all the players will use quality tiers.

My guess would be that very casual players will only concern themselves with quality for some high impact entities like turrets, tanks, armor, thrusters, shields, etc.. Essentially one offs, low quantity manufactures and things that are meh to solve by pure quantity.

[IronCartographer]

Kovarex had added kovarex process to every item in the game .

While this may promote mastery of recirculation by those who built a kovarex enrichment loop without fully considering the implications, I share your concern that it is basically the same thing on a larger scale in terms of the actual design/build process. I like the idea someone posted of machines having the ability to recirculate their ingredients back into themselves and discounting the next attempt if they fail to meet a quality threshold set in their UI. Maybe it could be an option, but doing it that way prevents you from quality-enhancing the recycled ingredients the way a "proper" loop could.

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around why this feature is eliciting such a divided response. It's bringing a very commonly accepted feature from countless other modern games and causing factorio players to think about how to deal with automating it. Having to do the math around if it's even worth it to automate it. It adds complexity and also some interesting decisions that will need to be made.

And on top of that, it's completely optional? If you don't want to play with quality just.... don't?

Consider multiplayer. I will be advocating for Quality to be optional in the UI at nearly all times as an overlay akin to another Alt Mode toggle, so that players who wish to spend time building Quality Control centers can do so without bothering their friends who want nothing to do with the RNG.

The currently stated design of making Quality invisible until it is researched means that researching it permanently changes the UI for everyone. This should not be.

Make another Shortcut Bar button for Quality, and have it toggle both the icons overlaid onto entities in the world (items should still show the quality at all times...) and all of the logistic/filter setup UIs. Show a simple icon to warn if something (filter/request) was set up by another player to use quality. This will allow the players who hate the new system to avoid destroying its use accidentally, while not having to see it in the UI at all times.

It is not enough to make the UI change when the tech is researched, because in multiplayer it will be a source of conflict, and in single-player the button (as in, the icon in the research menu) will be a landmine and source of irrational irritation simply by existing and creating a risk of shoving quality selection elements into so many UIs.

I want to be able to create a specialized section of the factory for creating high quality armor and vehicles without affecting anything else. No contamination of the rest of the factory, the settings, or UIs of my friends who oppose the RNG elements getting into everything.

I basically don't touch Factorio single-player anymore.

Please remember that there are even more degrees of optional, and that they should be able to coexist in multiplayer too. Different people at different times should be able to fully display or hide the quality feature from all UIs except as needed for warning so they don't break anything by editing it.

Overall, I love this! But I also hate the names! I expect you will make them moddable though, right? I'd name them something like Crude/Low (and you only realize the quality wasn't even good before you unlock quality modules and see it), Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.

Echoing the naming fitting WoW but clashing with Factorio. I will be referring to them by the number of pips, Q1-Q5.

[deepdriller]

So, what? I get a machine that can do the job of 2-and-a-half machines, for the low low price of 50 normal machines?
And all I gotta do is build literally every single one of my factory lines into a loop, recycling and remaking every item, until I get what I want?
I kinda see the appeal for any machine where the bonus isn't thing go more speed now, but even then, that's a lot of tedious effort for very little payout.

And when I started reading it, I still thought, okay, this doesn't quite fit in with the spirit of the game, but this just means there'll be interesting recipes to to go along with it, right? But, no, instead all that's added is constant prayers to RNGesus. There's no way designing something for this is fun.

[Splitframe]

So, what? I get a machine that can do the job of 2-and-a-half machines, for the low low price of 50 normal machines?
And all I gotta do is build literally every single one of my factory lines into a loop, recycling and remaking every item, until I get what I want?
I kinda see the appeal for any machine where the bonus isn't thing go more speed now, but even then, that's a lot of tedious effort for very little payout.

And when I started reading it, I still thought, okay, this doesn't quite fit in with the spirit of the game, but this just means there'll be interesting recipes to to go along with it, right? But, no, instead all that's added is constant prayers to RNGesus. There's no way designing something for this is fun.

I disagree with you on essentially everything.
For high quantity items it's a matter of perfectionism to aim for "all perfect" items,
but there are items in the game where solving with mass might not be an option.
Like armor, you can only wear one, so you'd want a higher quality there.
Maybe thrusters and other space ship related items, depending on how they implement those.
When I think about the integrity calculations in Space Exploration it would be nice to
have "perfect" quality thrusters and shields/turrets there.

Lasty, I think the process of refinement perfectly fits factorio and is very under used aside from enrichment,
many mods do essentially the same just with more intermediate products that have a chance to come out,
the holmium production in, again, Space Exploration comes to mind.

Edit: Also, RNGesus becomes irrelevant in a mass scale and is just a time thing at low scale for one offs like the armor.
And like Loewchen said below you can set the wanted quality if you provide the right quality input ingredients.
So the only enrichment you need to make are the base products like iron plates since all "perfect" iron plates produce
a "perfect" iron gear with 100% certainty. And all "perfect" iron gears produce 100% belts/inserter given that the
other products are also "perfect"

[Loewchen]

I think what many overlook is, that you can chose specific qualities in the recipe when using input items in that quality.
If I understand this correctly, the only products of which I cannot directly choose the quality are ones with raw inputs like plates and stone furnace (I doubt ores have quality). So you will not mix e.g. power poles of different quality in your base, but only produce your chosen quality.

I am a bit worried that when using quality modules, the different outputs and inputs that need to be separated will overcomplicate belt based production and make logistic bots even more attractive. Inventory size could also become an issue with potentially six quality stacks per item.

In general I think Quality is a neat trick to get improved stuff of almost everything without introducing tons of new recipes and intermediates, and it even creates the "multiple outputs" challenge that is quite underused in vanilla.
I remember how strong people disliked the Oil processing changes when originally announced and then people loved them the moment they actually tried it out.

Btw, higher quality Repair packs should have increased repair speed, higher durability is not worth much imo.

[SuicideJunkie]

Gotta agree with the naming scheme issues.
Legendary items are Unique. And that's good for antiques roadshow but terrible for manufacturing.

My two cent suggested list:
T1: Crude (or "Functional" if you are optimistic)
T2: Good
T3: Improved
T4: Excellent
T5: Perfect

Blueprints are definitely something other people are excited about. Pretty sure I won't care, as long as they can be marked with an "allowed/min/max quality X" for items in the blueprint, and the upgrade planner handles quality levels.

Recyclers improving the quality of the ingredients they're tearing to shreds is pretty ridiculous.
And knowing that prod and quality modules can't both be in the same slot means the recycling limits are rough. Clearly intended for jacking up the cost of quality, but it feels like there's gotta be a nicer way.

I say, cut Prod modules entirely.
...

I was just out for a walk and thinking about an alternate universe Factorio where productivity as is wasn't a thing.
All the processes would be somewhat reversible, and scrapping could be up to 100%.

Prod modules could still exist as a different thing; instead of simply increasing output, they could change the ratio of useful output vs scrap ore that needs to be re-smelted or otherwise disposed of.
For example, if the default was say 10 ore into 10 plates, and then you stamp gears and get 2 gears and 8 scrap/ore. Prod modules could shift that to be 4 gears and 6 scrap, or 9 gears and one scrap, with diminishing returns.
Say, each top tier module reduces waste by 50%, and thus 4 modules reduces the waste to 6.25%

Trading off productivity for quality would make a lot of sense under such a scheme. Getting pickier and sending back all the castoffs with ever more minor defects in them.

[Merlin1809]

This seems like a pretty pointless and not very useful mechanic to me. It looks a bit too overcomplicated. I'd rather have some sort of way of upgrading one component like only cirquit boards for example. Having this for all kinds of recources like gears, wires etc. seems way too tedious to set up in the end.

Add a new very rare recource (like something similar to rare metals from krastorio) that makes the player think about what to actually upgrade, since its limited, while still making it automizable. Remove the percentages completely and make the upgrades progressive and more expensive the better the quality gets. The upgraded cirquits can then be used to craft upgraded machines, since most machines and equipment need some kind of circuit anyway.

Also, as others have already pointed out, changing the names of the upgrades would be pretty good.

[Miroro]

I wrote already I'm not a fan of Quality idea.
Now I've read a lot of discussions here on forum.
I still don't like it a lot. What I would change to compromise, is to use quality for more advanced things/machinery like asemblers, boilers, turrets, bots. Having quality for each green circuit and low level resources where you consume milions of those is painfull. If one wants to have the base on higher level it will take ages and waste of resources.

[miturion]

Overall, I love this! But I also hate the names! I expect you will make them moddable though, right? I'd name them something like Crude/Low (and you only realize the quality wasn't even good before you unlock quality modules and see it), Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.

Exactly what I was thinking when reading the friday facts. It is not really an industrial way to call some gear uncommon, epic or legendary. The way I see it is that the items of lower tiers are just not perfectly made, like impurities or broken a bit. So these will naturally not create high quality items. Like chips can only work perfectly when all ingredients are perfect. Not uncommon or epic.

The other thing I was thinking is why dont you keep the coloring of items like ingame? For more consistency.

yellow -> red -> blue

Or for more colors same as inserters:

gray -> yellow -> red -> blue -> purple -> green -> white