Friday Facts #373 - Factorio: Space Age

[Earendel]

I’m getting a lot of questions. I'm not going to say anything about Space Age content, but I’ll try to answer these as clearly as possible:

Is Space Age good or bad for Space Exploration?
Good.

Is Space Exploration development continuing?
Yes, 0.7 (http://shorturl.at/jFIKT) will be the biggest update yet and has a new version of Alien Biomes being made in parallel. More stuff is planned for later updates too. I expect to remove the "experimental" tag in 0.9.

Will it mean that fewer people play Space Exploration and just play Space Age instead?
Probably yes, but if that’s the right decision for someone then that’s still a good thing. Also my plan was to get SE to a certain level of completion before focussing on compatibility and customisation but that’s still a couple of years away. Space Age will be released before Space Exploration is finished (1.0) so it takes the pressure off.

Will Space Exploration support Factorio Engine 2.0 features:
Yes.

Will Space Exploration make use of some Space Age features IF enabled?
Yes.

Will Space Exploration make use of all Space Age features IF enabled?
Maybe not all, but almost all. What would not be used? I don’t know but when integrating 2 big complicated systems I expect something to be unnecessarily awkward and if it already works “the SE way” it might just stay that way.

When using Space Age features will it change the Space Age content?
Yes, it will remix some things into the various Space Exploration planet types.

Will Space Exploration require Space Age in the future?
Or the inverse:
Will you be able to continue to play Space Exploration without Space Age?
I don’t know yet.
I've been in the position before where I've had a game, enjoyed mods, a DLC arrives that I can't afford/justify, mods switch to require it, and now I can't use most of the mods. I don’t want to inflict that on people unless it’s really the best way forward for the mod. Supporting 2 code bases (or a highly conditional code base) will slow down future developments and I have a lot planned. Having the mod structure try to bridge 2 different base game setups may also restrict being able to go in the direction that offers the best gameplay and that is also an important factor.
My expectation is that most SE players will get Space Age by an overwhelming majority; you’ll see why after a few more FFFs are released. A lot of the feedback I’ve had has supported this (and they haven’t even seen the Space Age features yet) but given the sources I expect it to be a bit biassed so I won’t rely on it to represent the general sentiment. I’ll do some sort of poll once more Space Age information is released and I’ll try to make a decision based on the data. I don’t know what the acceptable threshold would be, it depends on the concerns mentioned earlier but let’s say something like 90%.
Finally, even if future development did require Space Age there would still be a playable version that does not, it’s just that the non-SA version won’t keep getting new features.

[Atraps003]

Building an ammo supply infrastructure for artillery and repair/replacement infrastructure for damaged defense walls isn't trivial. It's a task that requires a non trivial amount of time. It's also a task that cannot be solved by brainlessly dumping some pre-made blueprints and let robots do all the building work.
And I don't consider biters a big part of the game. They're a nice addon to spice things up, but for me they are not a relevant part of the game. Relevant is factory building. Your mileage might vary, but this is how I see them.

You are exaggerating how much artillery is needed to trivialize biters in vanilla. Four wagons with shells is plenty to clear an area big enough to eliminate all biter attacks that would otherwise occur in the time needed to complete victory conditions.

Biters are a big part of the game as in dev time, not how important they are to the gameplay you prefer. It is nonsensical to ask the devs to trivialize their work on the biters because you don't consider them important when they have already given you the options to tune them down or turn them off.

[aka13]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write it out.

[tuhe]

I’ll do some sort of poll once more Space Age information is released and I’ll try to make a decision based on the data. I don’t know what the acceptable threshold would be, it depends on the concerns mentioned earlier but let’s say something like 90%.

No matter what, there is going to be a day where both Vanilla+SE and SA + SE have their last release and you move on to other interests (SE + Factorio2 ) -- so all this is really about timing and if Vanilla + SE will be considered "complete" before SA + SE -- and it is not as if these are half-completed mods, if someone had told me that SE 0.5 was it, I'd still describe it as highly polished and with a "better" ending than vanilla Factorio!

The most important resource in this project is your time and interest. I think a poll is a potentially good idea (I am thinking it will not be split), but I'd recommend highlighting it is contingent on what happens down the road (your life, your interest, how manageable two versions are, etc.) and need to be re-assessed from time to time.

[N35t0r]

To all of those complaining about artillery and the spidertron being kicked to later in the tech tree, consider instead that the tech tree bit just before those has been expanded.

Silly analogy: you have a lighthouse, now you want a taller lighthouse, so you need to take the top part off before building it up a bit and then replacing the top part.

[Bobbyoy2011]

Unless this is superior to Krastorio 2 and its associated mod packs, for me - and my current mod setup - its a step backwards.
The space age content might be superior but at first glance, (4 planets) its less content than what Krastorio 2 mod pack offers (infinite planets)
I'm still going to buy this because I want to support the Factorio devs (best game ever made). Hopefully in the future I will get what I wish for (an alternative ai enemy that builds his own base, consumes resources, attacks the player, etc)

[timtemple]

... Most of them also have different military targets.

Amazing! I love building bases and all the game modes / settings available for that already but... I also really love the story and challenge mods available.

Can't wait to see the new military targets in Space Age. Good times.

[Cloudnine]

"the ability to control train systems better" is what I'm really curious about. What we have now is pretty close to perfect, so I'm eager to find out how you improved it further.

I am very interested in the topic. I am particularly interested in whether the refueling of the trains will be simplified. I find this quite cumbersome at the moment.

[BlueTemplar]

Unless this is superior to Krastorio 2 and its associated mod packs, for me - and my current mod setup - its a step backwards.
The space age content might be superior but at first glance, (4 planets) its less content than what Krastorio 2 mod pack offers (infinite planets)
[...]

I haven't played Krastorio (2) in a while, and didn't get very far anyway, but since when does it have planets ?! (Mod description doesn't say anything about that.)

And anyway, aren't they just the same planet all over again (maybe a bit less if you also use Alien Biomes ?), while, just like when comparing Space Age expansion to the Space Exploration modpack, Space Age is supposed to diversify them a lot more :

Each of which has its own unique theme, resource, challenges and gameplay mechanics. Most of them also have different military targets.

(Consider also Warptorio and it's expansion.)

[Kostriktor]

Factorio has a lot of content already.
receiving more content is: ok ?

i hoped for improvements of already existing content; especially vehicles.
the car and tank are pretty much useless and steer like toys; driving with mouse was something i am waiting for !
maybe upgrade these vehicles, maybe give them different engines, rather than this special-engine who runs on everything from wood to uranium.

character-development is another big one; level-up or wear mecha-suit ?
arguably, the spidertron is a mecha !!

gunplay is what most gamers come for; guys in this game youre crashlanded on an alien planet and will fight them with everything from pistols to bazookas and more !
i hope for expansion on the gunplay and combat.
let us craft medikits, let us put attachments and customization onto the guns.
grenade-slot and keybind to throw. reload-mechanics.

you name it !

i understand wube are wow-players, so they tendentially care about quantity of content, rather than quality
im sure deepening and immersifying the already existing content would do well

[Bobbyoy2011]

Unless this is superior to Krastorio 2 and its associated mod packs, for me - and my current mod setup - its a step backwards.
The space age content might be superior but at first glance, (4 planets) its less content than what Krastorio 2 mod pack offers (infinite planets)
[...]

I haven't played Krastorio (2) in a while, and didn't get very far anyway, but since when does it have planets ?! (Mod description doesn't say anything about that.)

And anyway, aren't they just the same planet all over again (maybe a bit less if you also use Alien Biomes ?), while, just like when comparing Space Age expansion to the Space Exploration modpack, Space Age is supposed to diversify them a lot more :

Each of which has its own unique theme, resource, challenges and gameplay mechanics. Most of them also have different military targets.

(Consider also Warptorio and it's expansion.)

I miscommunicated,

Current Krastorio 2 has space exploration compatibility, I have it built into my factorio set up. But you're right, Krastorio 2 without space exploration has no planets of its own.

I play Krastorio along with a lot of other mods. This is to give me the experience that I want. The only thing my current game is lacking is more involved warfare.

This is what I do, if you're interested, and its all to provide a game that suits my own stlye.
I tune the resources down on Nauvis, and I also disable core mining drills (game breaking feature for me, if you're familiar with it, its a drill that drills the planet core and gives infinite free resources, and comes out at an insane speed in my opinion, that particular item means you dont have to go anywhere, to other planet, or to even explore your own planet.), so I disable core mining in the console.
I have biter evolution balanced for a longer timeframe.
I have required research multiplied, x10 I think it is.

The result is that I have limited resources, and have to fight on Nauvis to get control of resources, until I can research rockets and start going to other planets. By the time I have rockets researched I've had to strip almost half of the resources on Nauvis, so I cant waste much.
This also forces me to plan out what I can do, in advance, based on optimum efficiency, and renewable energy.

So this play style forces me to go from world to world, consuming resources. The Nauvis base becomes redundant because everything is mined, and I have to hoover up all items and move them and reconstruct on a new planet. (And gives the opportunity to have entirely new advanced bases, with little or no legacy or spaghetti belts etc)

That's how I play factorio

So, this might not be to everyone's taste, but its my own play style.

I think my point is, that in order for me to put down this exceptionally well balanced and complete experience, the expansion would have to be able to do some of the same stuff. And putting down my current build to pick up a new expansion will probably mean seeing it develop for a while, post release, and see what mods come out to fit with it.

So my original point was based on whether I can swap what I have now, for the new expansion.

If the new military targets mentioned are far superior to biters then that might make me drop my current build for the new build. It all depends on the opportunity. I've mentioned in other posts for example, if the AI can build bases and compete for resources, that would be the icing on the cake and in my opinion would complete factorio.

[malecord]

What kind of challenges do this new world pose?

Is it just different resources combination or there will be something substantially different mechanically?

Can we expect something like acquatic planet with very few small island and majority of gameplay on water, or extreme athmosfere planet where certain structures requiring constant mantenance while they are being weared down by weather, or hostile planet where we can expect super biters and thus more effort on defenses and disinfestation and such?

[jodokus31]

To those who think, that SA might be a light version of SE or that it contain lesser content than some mods:
- The factorio mod support is what is the basis of all those mods. Without the continuous from the factorio devs to support all of this, you'd only see a fraction of the mod variety. You can consider that a big fraction of the effort for any mod is done by factorio devs by providing the possibilities and engine support.
- By developing the SA expansion, new possibilities will be implemented into the factorio engine as well. It will be the basis for mods, that will profit from those possibilities and engine properties. No mod developer is able to do that, although they often have very creative ideas to implement certain ideas with the possiblities, which are available (but often are far from optimal)
- The vanilla experience is very well refined and I expect the SA vanilla experience to on-par with it. It will be the main mode to play factorio for the majority of players. For those, who play modded games or develop mod themselves, it might be a showcase, of what is and will be possible with engine.

I don't want to diminish the works of the mod developers (I'm modding myself), in contrary, I just want show the other side of the coin. There is no competition between base game devs and mod devs.
For the modding community, the SA expansion will be big advantage, because they(we) will have more tools to play with and can implement more of the creative ideas, which were problematic before.

[CzeJacob]

Hello!!

I'm so glad you're coming back to FFF .... love it.. absolutely...

I've read most of the FFF so I'm glad to learn what the acronym WUBE stands for now ... so I'm also glad to be able to look forward to the aliens processing theme in the future !!! I don't know if I've read it in an FFF or heard it in an interview but I know you've been working with this idea too ...

anyway, I'm an incredible fan and in any case

take my money

Translated with www.DeepL.com

***

ahoj !!

Jsem strašně rád,že se vracíte k FFF .... miluju to .. absolutně ...

četl jsem velkou většinu FFF a tak sem tedy rád,že se teď dozvídám co znamená zkratka WUBE ... tak jsem taky rád,že se mohu do budoucna těšit na téma zpracování aliens !!! nevím jestli jsem to četl v nějakém FFF,nebo slyšel v rozhovoru,ale vím že jste s touto myšlenkou také pracovali ...

každopádně vám neuvěřitelně fandím a v každým případě

take my money

****

[coppercoil]

http://shorturl.at/jFIKT

I calculated 27 science packs. This is very bad number for a nice-looking megabase . 28 types would be better. 32 would be perfect.

[GhosteK]

Hello,

I just created an account to share my thoughts and off the bat I'd like to say marvelous work! I can't wait for full release

While I was reading news about expansion one thing bothered me since beginning - will this expansion have option to play with vanilla game speed? I understand that you have to optimize game to be more dynamic basing on scale of expansion but I think there might be a lot of players which would like to play with original speed in terms of researching and building things. What do you think, is it even possible?

[Locane]

Are we going to see an engine update that handles greater than 60hz refresh rate?

I know it's possible because there's a mod that can sort of do it, but it's buggy and needs some developer support.

[mattc0m]

Can't wait! This looks great. Love the focus on making it accessible, too! ... Some of these mods go off the deep end

[Tricorius]

- Find some way to limit towers through a difficult to acquire resource, so the player has to be smart about positioning or expend effort/resources to maintain their defences. Riftbreaker does this through AI cores, which drain significant amounts of power, which is interesting because losing power means all your turrets go down. Factorio has nothing like this, turrets are mostly self sufficient forever as long as they are stocked with ammo/fuel, with no real risk of making yourself vulnerable unless you really screw up.

I have a feeling you night get this wish. I expect one of the planets to be a military planet. And I think we will see some variance of the old “alien goo” tech make a triumphant return.

[CaptainSlide]

Gday from Australia,

Great news on the up coming expansion, I've been waiting eagerly for some info.

I've only been playing Factorio since 1.18 so I'm relatively young for a Factorio Player, however since then I have logged (checks Steam, gulp) 8400.6 hours playing all the major mods including Krastorio, SE and IR2/3 and I use so many different mods I'm not even sure what Vanilla is anymore. I almost always play on Deathworld settings and find the Biters a welcome distraction from base building. I look forward to sending Wube money and having new challenges to one the best games I've ever played. (Sorry Homeworld still tops the list)

That said across all mods their is one constant Cliffs!.

Cliffs are both useful and a pain. In the early game they (can) provide good natural defenses and choke points for killing biters and can influence how you design and place stuff within your base for this reason I don't usually turn them off. But at some point they become a hindrance to expansion or just plain infuriating because you cant place something right where you need to, like a rail line. You also have to walk around them which can get very annoying if they are long and in the middle of your base, something which is almost inevitable.

So by moving Cliff explosives to later (presumably) in the game you really run the risk of the one or more of the following happening.

1. People will just turn them off, so no point having the cliffs or the explosives.
2. Somebody will make a mod to bring them in earlier in the game (already mentioned several times in this thread). I don't see the point of forcing mods to introduce something already in the game.
3. Waterfill mod, this already removes cliffs and you just pave over with landfill. (see above point)
4. Rage quit and spam Wube complaining about it (lol I think we are there already)

Mostly point 1.

Personally I don't think Cliff explosives should be behind a Rocket paywall. Where they are now in the tech tree not long after explosives, which basically come straight after Oil and Sulfur processing is exactly where they need to be.

If you really must move Cliff explosives they I think you need to introduce an early tech alternative, such as being able to place a miner over the cliff and it produces 10000 (or similar) stone at it's regular mining rate which you then have to deal with. It get's rid of a cliff eventually but is not instant gratification like the explosive is. You could also have the miner explode on completion making it slight more expensive to do. Alternatively create an excavator to do the same thing with.

Just my 2 cents worth.

PS if you need a beta tester look at me, look at me! (lol)