Friday Facts #129 - The late game

[RobertTerwilliger]

if there was the idea of manufacturing pre-charged batteries so electricity could be transported by belt, we could argue that.

I know that - it was weak point of my example and I realized it. Hoped noone would reveal it. I've just forgotten, Factorio is played mostly by smart people
: D

maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for barrels.

Indeed I don't really see any usage for barrels than transporting oil
- in wagons
- by bots (personally I don't use logistics, because I like belt puzzle and trains excite me very much, but it's only my preference, so bots carrying oil isn't a point for me)
- in player's inventory (honestly, never tried))
Well, it may be used as "any item" in logic-based devices, such as "power failure detector", but any item can be used there

I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

Oh yeah, water transporting should be very nice, especially in "small towns" setup in quite dry maps.
However, among all liquids unability to transport lubricant quite often dissapoints me - it is bound to main refinery, because it's made directly from heavy oil, so if you want somewhere else to use lubricant - you'll have nowhere to dump light oil and p.gas. And there's no "intermediate" item-product such as sulfur in lubricant chain.
Again, in "small towns" setup you may want to put, say, blue belts production somewhere far from refinery "town", but it would be quite wasteful to drag pipes to horizon just for that, so you're quite bounded in this case.

[tehroach]

I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

Oh yeah, water transporting should be very nice, especially in "small towns" setup in quite dry maps.

Water by rail will be a very nice addition.

However, among all liquids unability to transport lubricant quite often dissapoints me - it is bound to main refinery, because it's made directly from heavy oil, so if you want somewhere else to use lubricant - you'll have nowhere to dump light oil and p.gas. And there's no "intermediate" item-product such as sulfur in lubricant chain.
Again, in "small towns" setup you may want to put, say, blue belts production somewhere far from refinery "town", but it would be quite wasteful to drag pipes to horizon just for that, so you're quite bounded in this case.

In my game play, I never really have a main base ie I never use setups that use a "Main Bus Line" all my factories are modular ie items required and produced are all sent by rail

In my factories that require lubricant ie Electric engines and Express belts
Having the ability to transport Oil by Barrel give me the option to do it all via one train with one carriage.
By utilizing the basic oil processing and converting waste into solid fuel this can also be achieved in a dry environment without ever needing extensive pipe networks.

Removing the Barrel option would force the need for a double carriage train, this in my current map even though there is room for 3 waiting trains (4 train blocks, 5 signals) at my engine plant, I would be forced to pack up an move it, because the plant is shoe horned in between 3 other factories and there is not enough room for a larger station on the straight part of the track.

Now I know that my problems represent a very weak argument for the case, so I will base this more on the fact that it removes the option from the player for using one carriage setups and forces the two carriage option on to them.

[brunzenstein]

Having the ability to transport Oil by Barrel give me the option to do it all via one train with one carriage.
By utilizing the basic oil processing and converting waste into solid fuel this can also be achieved in a dry environment without ever needing extensive pipe networks.

I'm fiddling exact with his task and kindly ask you to provide a screenshot,
showing your solution for loading / unloading of crude oil barrels to/on the trains as well as the emptying of barrels ad funneling into the cracking / converting units

[Escadin]

How do you make sure that only one carriage doesn't overload on either empty or full barrels leaving too little storage space (or eventually none at all) for the other?

[RobertTerwilliger]

How do you make sure that only one carriage doesn't overload on either empty or full barrels leaving too little storage space (or eventually none at all) for the other?

You can set filter on wagon's every slot:
- simple way: put any quantity of an item that should be the only one put into that slot, press MIDDLE mouse button (default)
- OR press middle button on empty slot to select filtered item.

Thus you set half slots for empty barrels and half slots for full ones (or less if you also want other items in the same wagon)

You can also set filters on your toolbar slots in the same way so it won't be too messy thanks to that.

[Escadin]

I thought that only works for the quickbar... Omg this is going to solve so many little issues, thanks!

[vanatteveldt]

I thought that only works for the quickbar... Omg this is going to solve so many little issues, thanks!

Yeah, it's kind of strange that it would work there, and not on other containers such as smart chests,has especially since on the toolbar it's mostly a convenience thing, but here it really changes the way the factory works The real/expected/superior solution would have been the ability to set a circuit condition on wagon content, but that is only possible with a mod such as the Smart Train mod (and even then a bit fiddly because you also need to deal with the "no wagon" condition).

FYI, I recently posted on trains+barrels here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21764#p136889

[tehroach]

Having the ability to transport Oil by Barrel give me the option to do it all via one train with one carriage.
By utilizing the basic oil processing and converting waste into solid fuel this can also be achieved in a dry environment without ever needing extensive pipe networks.

I'm fiddling exact with his task and kindly ask you to provide a screenshot,
showing your solution for loading / unloading of crude oil barrels to/on the trains as well as the emptying of barrels ad funneling into the cracking / converting units

No Problems

This is the overview of where my electric engine factory is located

Ok yes I lied, it wouldn't be that difficult to extend the station but I am a bit of a greeny when it comes to cutting down trees
cause I like Trees.

This is the zoomed in portion of the factory, so you can see it easier.

Note: I am using a mod by Kikkers that allows me to detect the continence of the train and hold it until particular circumstances are met, but hopefully post v13.x this mod will be deprecated by vanilla
If you want the mod you can get it from viewtopic.php?f=91&t=14824&hilit=kikkers+sensor or if you prefer straight vanilla I would simply recommend placing a chest buffer between the train and the barreling assembler.

Without the mod you will not need any of the smart circuit network, but if you want to know:

Blue Detector - outputs to green

5 Comparators (North of train) input: green; output: red; output signal: Yellow = 1;
Conditions:
*Iron Plate = 0;
*Steel = 0;
*Green Chips = 0;
*Full Oil Barrels = 0;
*Electric Engines = 50;

2 Comparators (South of train) output: red; output signal: Green = 1;
*input: green; Condition: Train > 0;
*input: red; condition: Yellow > 0;

Green thingy (Next to station stop) - input: red; Condition: Green > 1;

The train wagon is filtered to hold: (Middle Mouse Button)
*4 x Iron Plate (400)
*2 x Steel (200)
*1 x Green Chips (200)
*1 x Electric Engines (50)
*2 x Empty Barrels (20)
*2 x Full Barrels (20)
Rest Solid Fuel

The ratios are not perfect, but the factory design output could easily be expanded by adding extra engine assemblers to the North and South as current input greatly exceeds needed input.

Chests - (even though I have used smart chests this could be viewed as waste because you could easily get away with wood ones)
*Both Iron Plate and Steel ones have 2 open slots
*Green Chip one only 1 open slot
* Engines and Solid Fuel all open

Smart inserter (between train and Barreling assembler) input: red; Condition: Oil Fluid < 250

Note: you may wish to run a splitter off the solid fuel line to refuel the train here, but this train refuels at the station where it dumps the soild fuel.


PS: You may have noticed the marking on the concrete or the large green Warehouse in the center right in the Overview picture.
both of these mods are great and I highly recommend them (IMO they should be incorporated into vanilla)
Anoyomouse's Warehousing Mod viewtopic.php?f=93&t=17295&hilit=warehouse
D3Phoenix's Color-Coding Mod viewtopic.php?f=144&t=13907&hilit=color ... +D3Phoenix


Note

[RobertTerwilliger]

tehroach, nice setup, however this doesn't really allow to make max from oil (I use setup where refinery block contains up to 4 refineries with 4 productivity3 modules each and a beacon with 2 speed3 modules, that more than compensates speed loss from productivity modules - making 40% more from oil I have, at very good speed, being insane smoke factory though)))

Also solid fuel being "side product" is a bit funny) Usually side products are semi-useless things)

[brunzenstein]

may we have a screenshot?

[Escadin]

Nice compact set up although I wonder is there no drawback to leaving one of the fluid inputs / outputs of a refinery or plant disconnected?

And why do peole prefer rail circles in their bases intead of using bidirectional trains? (according to every screenshot featuring a train I've seen so far)

[Zeblote]

And why do peole prefer rail circles in their bases intead of using bidirectional trains? (according to every screenshot featuring a train I've seen so far)

The trains are quite a bit faster if you only have a locomotive on one side.

[FlyHigh]

Late reply but I'd like like to support the idea of the mining tweaks. It seems all I'm doing these days is managing mines so I can relate to that. I've refused to go for super rich maps as I really don't think playing on easy mode is usually any fun. Also, don't forget to include coal and oil in the new 'mining scheme'!

As far as trains go, I really like how they're done now. I'll welcome the smart layout thing though but can't really think of any other thing to make infrastructure better. As for the train wagons themselves, more slots, more diversity seems to be just what I need. Let them come!

[RobertTerwilliger]

may we have a screenshot?

Ooops, I've lied - refinery has only 2 slots, I messed up everything - havent played for a while... Even forgot I managed to fit 2 beacons))))
//I messed up, because old setup with 1 beacon gave output (counting speed) about 40% more comparing to raw (unmoduled) refinery (44% actually)

UPD: No, I'm wrong again - it's rocket silo which has 4 slots and allows to get 40% productivity. OMG, what's up with my memory? What a shame

So it's 2 P3 modules each, and 2 beacons with 2 S3 modules
This one gives +104% faster output, counting productivity and speed at the cost of +300% power consumption,
thus making power worth per oil unit +96% (4.00/2.04=1.96) comparing to raw refining, however this is less than +210% only with P3 modules.
(only 2 P3 modules provide 1.2 production with 0.7 speed, so output speed is 1.2*0.7=0.84. Energy consumption with 2 P3's is 2.6, so energy per unit is 2.6/0.84 = 3.1 -- +210% increase)

In fact, with 2 beacons you save 37% power in refineries, HOWEVER beacons themselves use quite a bit, so it is worth to set up beacons starting from 2 refineries, according to my calculations.

[AndaleTheGreat]

I already use a mod to increase ores at a distance and would love to see something like that implemented. I assume it will work better if built by the gamemakers but more importantly I imagine it would be something quite configurable.

As for the long term miner I feel like this is ok but the dirty or is a step backwards. Wait. Read first.
I think it would make more sense to have the dirty ores to start with and get miners that can actually dig more cleanly.

Simple way: Mining has 3 levels currently; hand, burner, electric. To make these dirty they could produce a percentage of stone in place of the ores. Hand is %50, burner is %30, electric is %10. If a fourth tier of mining comes along let it be the clean miner that produces no stone.

Kinda hard way: As mentioned in the FFF there would be dirty ore. It would be cooked in a furnace, producing slag as a secondary output which you could use in place of stone or as an ingredient for concrete. This would also require furnaces to have a second output.

Actually hard, kinda irritating way: Full on industiralCraft style. Make 1 dirty ore worth 1 iron plate, but if put thru a crusher it is worth more, then a washer to remove the stone and stopping slag production..... and so on.
Honestly, I don't like this way. It isn't real. If you crush down and clean your ores all you'd have is better quality metal with less slag. The amount of metal you've removed from the ground is the same.



Sidenote: I still think steel should require coal. I realize it adds work, but I want this game to be work.

[tehroach]

tehroach, nice setup, however this doesn't really allow to make max from oil (I use setup where refinery block contains up to 4 refineries with 4 productivity3 modules each and a beacon with 2 speed3 modules, that more than compensates speed loss from productivity modules - making 40% more from oil I have, at very good speed, being insane smoke factory though)))

I definitely would agree with you.

But in that particular game; Beacons and modules are a "What are they item"
as that factory was built to provide engines for the robot factory (that we haven't even found a spot for, let alone built it, lol)
level 3 modules are probably quite a few play sessions away in that game.

Also solid fuel being "side product" is a bit funny) Usually side products are semi-useless things)

ATM in that game most solid fuel is going into storage, because we currently gave two massive coal mines and plans for a third, only a few trains run exclusively on solid fuel;
We will be gradually converting some of the older factories to solid fuel as their local coal reserves run out, but for the perceivable future all power will be produced using coal.

[Qon]

I mean, you will never be able to send, say, gears though pipes - why should you send liquids though belts then?
Or another example: you can't send electricity through belt or pipe - it has it's own network. It's okay to have different networks for different resource types.

Sorry but these comparisons are a little silly,
maybe if there was the idea of manufacturing pre-charged batteries so electricity could be transported by belt, we could argue that.
But I would probably agree with you that it is un-needed, also it is not a feature currently in the game.

Manufacturing batteries for use as energy source in another location sounds like fun. Maybe we could have the contents of the capacitors extractable and shipped to outposts without their own energy production or wires connecting them to main base. With electric boilers and fluid rail tankers that keep temperature that is another way of transporting energy.

I literally never used barrels longer than from filling assembler to train and from train to pouring assembler. And I don't see any reason why I possibly should - 'cause pipes do it faster than any belt, just plonk some small pumps if distance is too long.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the tankers,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for barrels.

Agree!

The only problem with tanker that appears to me is, like a loader from previous FFF, it is highly specialized entity and doesn't fit perfectly into Factorio concept. However this one at least has sense))

IMO I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the water and oil barrels,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for other types of barrels.

[vanatteveldt]

The only problem with tanker that appears to me is, like a loader from previous FFF, it is highly specialized entity and doesn't fit perfectly into Factorio concept. However this one at least has sense))

IMO I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the water and oil barrels,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for other types of barrels.[/quote]

I agree with Robert: the inability to transport oil products means that you can't have refining and (some) production in different plants linked by rail, which is a shame. Flame thrower ammo aside, you will need petroleum gas for plastics and sulphur, and heavy oil or lube for electric engines and blue belts. So, you can decide to refine to plastics and sulphur and ship these out, but you can't ship out heavy oil/lube, forcing you to make engines and blue belts in the same location as your refining. Shipping oil to your belt/engine plant is annoying since the refining also produces light oil and petro, which would then need to be flared off or converted to solid fuel, requiring a large amount of buildings (barrel unloading, refining, [2xsolid fuel, boiler, pump], steam engine) and piping just to get some lube.

[tehroach]

The only problem with tanker that appears to me is, like a loader from previous FFF, it is highly specialized entity and doesn't fit perfectly into Factorio concept. However this one at least has sense))

IMO I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the water and oil barrels,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for other types of barrels.

You do realize that I am arguing the case to keep barrels?

I could see reasons for why you might want to transfer other Oil Products by rail and I am all for the player having this choice, however my factories general thirst for burnable fuel making solid fuel a good alternative and having many smaller solid fuel productions satisfies needs and renders making a dedicated solid fuel plant unnecessary.

I agree with Robert: the inability to transport oil products means that you can't have refining and (some) production in different plants linked by rail, which is a shame. Flame thrower ammo aside, you will need petroleum gas for plastics and sulphur, and heavy oil or lube for electric engines and blue belts. So, you can decide to refine to plastics and sulphur and ship these out, but you can't ship out heavy oil/lube, forcing you to make engines and blue belts in the same location as your refining. Shipping oil to your belt/engine plant is annoying since the refining also produces light oil and petro, which would then need to be flared off or converted to solid fuel, requiring a large amount of buildings (barrel unloading, refining, [2xsolid fuel, boiler, pump], steam engine) and piping just to get some lube.

My rather small Electric engine plant consists of 14 buildings dedicated to the engines (of which could be easily expanded to 20 without adjusting input flow) and 3 buildings dedicated to waste management (although I would never really call solid fuel waste).
So your "Large amount of buildings and piping, just to get some lube" amounts to <10% of that particular factory's size.

In the end I am really looking forward to the implementation of tankers, however I still believe that there is good reason to leave the barrels in the game, if not to expand upon them.

[Qon]

IMO I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the water and oil barrels,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for other types of barrels.

You do realize that I am arguing the case to keep barrels?

Yes. It's just that I've had the opportunity to find the use of the other kinds of barrels you didn't argue for.

In the end I am really looking forward to the implementation of tankers, however I still believe that there is good reason to leave the barrels in the game, if not to expand upon them.

Yes, agree. We need both.